Are You a Presbyterian?

Your national church is supporting gun control extremists:

It may be wrapped in a message of religious peace, but Bryan Miller is a well known operative in the anti-gun community, and Heeding God’s Call is his latest project. If you’re a Presbyterian, speak out against the Church for inserting itself into politics. Government doesn’t belong in churches, but I think a useful corollary to that is that churches don’t belong in government either.

UPDATE: More here. I really don’t like it when churches insert themselves into political matters under the guise that these are really spiritual matters. Murder, rage, and vengeance — these are all matters of the spirit. Gun control is a matter of politics.

UPDATE: It would seem PCUSA has a history.

52 Responses to “Are You a Presbyterian?”

  1. Robb Allen says:

    Or, just do like I did years ago and leave the Presbyterian church.

  2. Matthew Carberry says:

    Presbyterian Church USA is a lost cause, completely subverted with modern East Coast liberalism. The schism in the Presbyterian community in the US isn’t as loud as the Peskypalians but it is more or less identical in scope.

    Individual churches and synods are abandoning PCUSA as they abandon the Gospel.

    We aren’t Catholics; as good Calvinists with a democratic tradition we feel free to jettison leadership that fails to agree with us, after all, salvation is persistant regardless of who’s in charge temporally. =)

  3. Dirk Diggler says:

    No – don’t leave the church (although give your tithes elsewhere). Contact the IRS. Write letters. Complain. It is a violation of a church’s tax exempt status to be involved in politics. Copy your members of Congress on the letters. If enough people complain, the IRS has to at least look into the allegations, along with reviewing the church’s expenditures. MAKE IT HURT.

  4. Not all Presbyterians. PCUSA is liberal and has been for years and years. They’ve been behind the divestment from Israel BS too. PCA (Presbyterian Church of America) is conservative/evangelical. Was PCA for years, but got sick of the Presbytery telling the individual churches what to do. Greatly prefer congregational church government where at least you get what you deserve.

    “It is a violation of a church’s tax exempt status to be involved in politics.”

    No it isn’t. They can opine on political issues all they want. They have freedom of speech too. They just can’t use church funds to directly support a candidate or party directly.

  5. SayUncle says:

    Yup. They also don’t care for Israel one bit.

  6. Sean says:

    Sebastian, you’ve way oversimplified things. Why are you taking this national, institutionalized view?

    There have been so many fractures in recent years, over everything from gay marriage to technical doctrine issues that make most of us drool with lack of interest.

    I’ve emailed and spoken in private with pastors I’ve disagreed with. There was once a sermon titled (paraphrasing due to memory) “can one serve as a soldier and still be a Christian?”

    I did not write to some national council, the government or petition on facebook. Instead I knocked on the man’s office door and gave him constructive feedback.

    The more I follow these issues, the more I realize “how” we respond can matter as much as “what” the issue is.

  7. Sebastian says:

    I’m not sure what you are speaking of, in terms of taking a “national institutionalized view.”

  8. Sean says:

    You seem to imply that all Presbyterian congregations are in alignment on this issue.

    While there are some political slants I don’t favor, my particular congregation recently raffled off a private shooting lesson for a fund raiser.

    Perhaps us kooky folks in the Pacific Northwest are difficult to pigeon hole politically.

  9. Sertorius says:

    Just wanted to emphasize that this is not representative of all Presbyterians, just the very liberal PCUSA denomination.

    There are several great Presbyterian denominations that don’t meddle in things like gun control (PCA, OPC, ARP, etc etc) and are theologically sound.

    I am a member of a PCA church where the church deacons shot skeet at one of their meetings this year.

  10. This is nothing new. My family growing up was Presbyterian. Mainly because we had friends who were and the local pastor was a very smart and intelligent man. My parents were active mainly to help provide my sister and I a solid foundation.

    When the PCUSA came out on the side of the antis in like 1995, my dad promptly sent a nasty gram and we no longer attended.

    That was the last time we set foot in the Presbyterian church as “members”. We no longer donated to the offering and instead donated our money to other charities directly. The only times we went back in the church was on Christmas eve service to visit with friends and my fathers funeral. Which was only done there because the previous pastor who was a good friend of my father wanted to hold the service in the church.

    PCUSA is a bunch of lefties that honestly probably doesn’t speak for most of their membership. The icing on the cake is I know the church we went to growing up died due to membership leaving. I’m sure that is by no means the only one either.

  11. guy says:

    It’s not just Presbyterians.

    This past 9/11 I found out that in the (fairly large)Lutheran church I used to attend the pastor’s sermon declared the US was to blame for the 9/11 attacks.

    What is it about leftist BS that’s so attractive? It’s always smelled like ass to me.

  12. Jason says:

    The title of this blog is misleading, almost to the point of link-baiting. But I’ll be charitable and chalk it up to ignorance.

    PCUSA does NOT equal “Presbyterian” any more than “Southern Baptist” equals “Baptist”. There are MANY Presbyterian denominations that are NOT affiliated with PCUSA.

    And for the record, I don’t attend any church, but if I were, a good PCA church would be toward the top of my list to sample.

  13. Stephen says:

    I belong to a PCA church, which is not part of PCusa, but I’d never belong to any church that took a stand on strictly political issues. Particularly gun control. There’s no Biblical guidance on this, therefore it’s not something that should be handled at the Church level.

    The problem is that even if your PCUSA church is fine on the issues you care about, some percentage of your donation goes to the central administration and supports these causes, on their national website and in their doctrine. Take a look at the Presbyterian website.

    There are a lot of fine churches out there. No need to attend one that gets involved in politics on either side (I wouldn’t attend a church that supported the NRA, either).

  14. Dirk Diggler says:

    @Jeff the Baptist – First Amendment rights are limited for churches and 501(c)(3) organizations.,,id=161131,00.html

    I would argue the PCUSA has crossed the line. At a minimum, a visit from the IRS may work.

  15. Jay says:

    Schism is coming to PCUSA, I fear, over not just this issue, but in general substituting “social justice” for the Gospel. This is just one more symptom of the overall sickness int he denomination.

    Also, it’s not just that easy for individual churches to leave the denomination, unless they want a legal fight over church property and grounds. Google “Kirk of the Hills” in Tulsa, OK for an example.

  16. TennGoodBoy says:

    The national United Methodist gang is no better. I think the average local members of these churches dont bother to inform themselves…

  17. One of the difficulties for many denominations is that the more remote someone gets from the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more likely they are to end up at the national headquarters writing silly policy papers or faculty at one of the denomination’s colleges.

    It never ceases to amaze me that many Christian universities and colleges are at least as far to the left as public institutions, and not just on matters that are arguably within the realm of Christian concern for the poor, but even confusing diversity with perversity. (A United Church of Christ college near Chicago is now asking LGBT applicants to identify themselves as such so that they can be given scholarships to encourage more “diversity” at the school.)

  18. Carl from Chicago says:

    For those interested, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence (ie. Josh Horwitz and Ladd Everitt) claim to have various religious groups as members of their coalition (to stop guns, it seems, not necessarily violence).

    Coalition organizations that are ostensibly religious in nature include:

    American Jewish Committee
    American Jewish Congress
    Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America
    The Bible Holiness Movement, International
    Central Conference of American Rabbis
    Church of the Brethren
    Jesuit Conference – Office of Social Ministries
    Jewish Community Center Association
    Jewish Women International
    Mennonite Central Committee
    National Council of Jewish Women, Inc.
    Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
    Union for Reform Judaism
    Unitarian Universalist Association
    United Church of Christ
    United Methodist Church Board of Church & Society
    United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
    Women’s League for Conservative Judaism
    YWCA of U. S. A.

    I grew up in a Mennonite church (Central Committee and Bretheren above are Mennonites). I left the church long ago (not because of the church itself, but because I developed into an agnostic). But my father is VERY active. I asked him if he knew anything about MCC’s involvement in CSGV. He didn’t know, and had never heard of the Coalition.

  19. Bram says:

    I’ll be at the range this afternoon with my shooting buddies – 2 Presbyterian Pastors and an Elder. While I give my church, I never give any donations that might make it to the national organization. It’s a constant battle with the national General Assembly to keep them from going off the leftist deep-end

    That said, last I heard the official position on guns was:
    “…the denomination’s position in support of legitimate possession and use of firearms in hunting, the maintenance of a subsistence lifestyle, target-shooting, collecting and other recreational sports.”

  20. karrde says:

    I feel like I came to the issue late.

    There is the difference between (a) Presbyterian Church USA, the national organization and (b) Local Presbyterian Church that is member of PCUSA, not to mention the difference between PCUSA and similar-but-not-quite-the-same PCA/ARP/etc.

    Parsing which group is doing what can be confusing.

    nota bene: I will assume no ill-will is meant…I grew up in a religious background, and I find such distinctions confusing. Kind of like someone from the Brady campaign confusing the NRA for a similar-named NAGR.

    After learning more about the PCUSA’s activity, I file it in the corner of my mind labeled Some National Religious Group or Denominational Hierarchy Just Took Up Another Socially Liberal Cause.

    Kind like Clayton says, the people who care more about such things than about the everyday life of the Church tend to gravitate into the upper levels of SomeChurch Hierarchy.

    Although that’s not the only place to find them; witness Father Pfleger and the various religious activists who protested outside of the NRA gathering in Pittsburgh.

  21. gus3 says:

    Anyone who attended a(n ostensibly) Presbyterian college or uni could have seen this coming twenty years ago.

    Any denomination that would allow a college or uni to use their designation, while teaching the things they tried to cram down my throat (and which I–figuratively–spit back in their faces), gets no respect from me.

  22. Cormac says:

    Didn’t Jesus say something about selling your jacket and picking up an AR?

    Ok, so I paraphrased and updated the verse…sue me.

  23. LaurieK says:

    They lost me when they went to the Middle East and blew of the Israelis to meet with (and praise to the heavens) the Palestinians.

  24. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: The National Presbyterie
    RE: I Ask….

    ….what did Christ mean when He said….

    “Now is the time for every man to take his purse and buy a sword”?

    Whether ‘swords’ or ‘guns’, what’s the difference? Guns are merely the contemporary form of ‘swords’.

    The point being that, as I understand scripture, you’re philosophy is contrary to what Christ taught.

    In truth, the solution to the problem of violence of one man upon another is not doing away with guns. As George Bernard Shaw put it so sagely….

    The notion that disarmament can put a stop to war [or physical violence] is contradicted by the nearest dogfight.

    The only way to stop the violence is to change mens’ hearts. Pray for THAT! And you’ll get better results.

    Your current approach is like giving a man a fish, as opposed to teaching a man to fish.

    Hope that helps….

    ….but, based on what I’ve witnessed regarding the Presbyterians, I have SERIOUS DOUBTS.


    [God builds his temple in the heart on the ruins of churches and religions. — Ralph Waldo Emerson]

  25. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: All
    RE: Heh

    I have to wonder if the Presbyterians pray against the ‘violence’ done to the most innocent of US in abortion mills like those operated and/or supported by Planned Parenthood.

    Three guesses….first two don’t count.


    ….there has been more ‘murder’ done in those facilities than by the use of ‘guns’ in America over the last 38 years.

    RE: Speaking of 38 Years

    It’s been 38+ years since Roe v. Wade. Since then we’ve murdered MILLIONS of the most innocent amongst US.

    Now, consider history.

    In 33 AD, the most innocent Man to walk the face of the Earth was murdered.

    In 73 AD, 40 years after that horrible murder, the Jewish nation was wiped off of the face of the Earth. That ‘extermination’ started 37 years after the murder, in 70 AD in the war perpetrated by the Romans.

    I see it as a chastisement.

    We seem to be in the same sort of ‘situation’. As I look around me, I see US doing what the Jews did to themselves. That’s based on a recent reading of Flavius Josephus’ account of the Wars of the Jews.

    They tore themselves to pieces, which weakened them in their struggle to survive.

    Even in the face of the Roman siege of Jerusalem, they were at each others throats instead of their common enemy.

    It was madness. And we seem to be going the same route.


    [History repeats itself. That’s one of the problems with History.]

  26. Neal Scroggs says:

    I left the church years ago, mostly in protest of leftist posturing like this. Since then I’ve become a convinced atheist so I neither attend or support any church or religious organization, even those that conform to my political standards, ie, no politics in church…

  27. Bill says:

    I dont know the extent this covers my own religion, but if it is representative of my local Presbyterian church I will go to my minister and ask her questions as she’s requested people do.

    I support Israel, and am a vocal advocator of 2nd amendment freedom and usage.

    All I’ve ever heard is of supporting and donating and prayers for peace, but this isn’t the church I grew up in, its a recent one.

    If I find this is a church that supports these policies I will do my damndest to change it.

  28. Boyd says:

    PC membership has been declining at a steady 50,000 members a year for 40 years. The last few years have been worse than ever. The reasons are many but mostly are rooted in the radical Left turn the pastorate took in the 60’s. Social Justice was substituted for the Great Commission with results that seem to surprise no one but the “leadership” of what is left of a once great denomination. A majority of the church has now moved on (including me) and won’t return to what now is nothing more than a quasi-religious wing of the progressive Left. If I needed a social club I would attend Rotary more often.

  29. Bill says:

    Chuckle, I usually appreciate your comments across various blogs but presbyterianism as I was raised is a Democratic system based conservative church with constitutional tendencies and strong basis in equality and community donations.

    Abortion was never discussed but much like the second amendment it was up to everyones own discretion on what we believed…

    The church was Democratic style, the choices, individuals.

  30. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Bill
    RE: Indeed

    Abortion was never discussed but much like the second amendment it was up to everyones own discretion on what we believed…

    The church was Democratic style, the choices, individuals. — Bill

    As if I didn’t know that already.

    The ‘church’ in C’Springs was, based on reports of former members from the 80s, ran the hottest singles group in the town.

    Based on that report, which I believe based on my experience with a member of that ‘group’, I can imagine why they’d not touch ‘abortion’, as these people today ‘touch’ guns.


    [Where there is no religion, hypocrisy becomes good taste.]

  31. Chuck Pelto says:

    P.S. My point being that they are OBVIOUSLY ‘discussing’ guns NOW.

    Maybe, if they weren’t such hypocrites, they’d discuss abortion—which has killed millions in America—as well.

  32. Kerry says:

    Hmm..for those weary of Presbyterianism, may I suggest the church actually founded, (“And I say thou art Rock, and upon this rock I will found my church…”) by Christ Himself. Christ is really and truly present in the Consecrated Host, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

    And it’s nice to know I can protect his Priest with something from CZ.

  33. Bill says:


    Respectfully, man, I don’t know. I’ve never expanded beyond my local community and raising money for starving kids in Africa or Schooling projects in South America.

    The topics this article and your comments discuss just don’t come up. At least not a sunday worship level. Perhaps the bible study groups during the week, or the deacons discuss such matters, but there’s no nefarious plot that I can see.

    Just people praying for their friends, family, our troops, victims of tragedies, habit for humanity, soup kitchen style work, and letting each person tend their own garden.

    So I’m really not cool with Presbyterian Church USA trying to represent all of us. They are not representative of presbyterianism as I know it, or grew up with.

  34. Fred says:


    I left the Presbyterian church I was confirmed in when they decided on my behalf, to speak for me, to harm the only democracy in the Mideast, by disinvesting holdings in companies that did business with Israel.

    Haven’t missed the requests for donations since.

  35. Jerry says:

    What Boyd said (at 6:15) also applies to the Methodist church. Membership is dropping rapidly. Reagan said he didn’t leave the Democratic Party, the party left him. Same in my case with the Methodist church in which I was once very active. The good folks there spent more time talking about saving whales than saving souls; tried to get the building declared a sanctuary for illegal aliens, went recruiting for LGBT persons, held “peace” vigils, etc. I’m sure they’re against individual gun ownership. Sociologists have long recognized the phenomenon that the most active members of an organization rise to the top and re-shape its agenda to suit them. And all the time, so-called mainstream churches grow emptier. You’d think someone would point out the libs are in a hold and should stop digging.

  36. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Bill
    RE: Respectably Back

    My upbringing was with the USAF. specifically SAC. I did the Cuban thingie at ‘Ground Zero’, i.e., Offutt AFB. My Father—God rest his soul—was a combat crew commander for an ICBM squadron. The bags were stacked by the door. If he got the call, we all hit the door running. He for his battle position. We for the family stomping grounds on the south shore of Lake Superior.

    What’s my point?

    I’m a ‘generic’ Christian. I do not hold to any ‘church’. The many ministers I listened to before I became a REAL Christian, all focused on Christ and the Word. Politics, as it was anathema in a military chapel, had nothing to do with the ministry.

    Since then, i.e., being on my own from 1970, when I enlisted in the Army and became a paratrooper, it’s been pretty much the same. No politics in a military chapel. [NOTE: It’s contrary to the UCMJ.] However, after leaving the auspices of the UCMJ in 1997, after becoming a REAL Christian in 1992, I’ve noticed something.

    That ‘something’ is that the so-called ‘mainstream’ christian denominations have little, if much, to do with what is written in that Old Book. They seem to pick and choose the verses that they want to ‘believe’. I seem to recall that a certain group of so-called ‘christians’ did the same sort of think in order to enslave peoples who had a darker colored skin then they had. I do believe that history would reveal that they were ‘Democrats’ and ‘Presbyterians’, too boot.

    We had something of a ‘disagreement’ about this about 150 years ago, as of April this year….the firing upon Fort Sumter.

    What’s my point?

    These people are not, as I see it, particularly interested in God. They’re more interested in themselves and anything that will get them more power.

    So…..back on topic…..

    ….the Presbyterians don’t like ‘guns’. I can appreciate that. Hitler didn’t like ‘guns’ either….in the hands of those whom he ultimately sent to incinerators.

    Be advised….

    ….many of us who did ‘time’ in the service of our country, vis-a-vis the Constitution of the United States, can see what is going on with this. And many of us don’t care for it. It’s a violation of what we swore to defend. And we don’t care what ‘religious belief’ such people ascribe to. We can recognize an ‘enemy domestic’ when it is as blatant as THIS.

    Hope that helps…..


    [….to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic….. — oath of office of a commissioned officer in the United States Armed Forces]

    P.S. Even in ‘retirement’, they can ALWAYS call you back. So you’re never REALLY out of the ‘harness’. I exercised that sort of option in a JCSX some time ago. Operation CERTAIN SAGE was the name.

  37. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Bill
    RE: The Power

    I pray every day. For a lot of things: myself, my family, my associates in Christ, Christians everywhere. I even pray for the President….that he mend his ways.

    God’s will be done, as opposed to mine.

    But praying doesn’t do any good if you’re not in sync with God, vis-a-vis Christ.

    I prayed every day, read that Old Book every night, sang in choir, all that. But I never realized the Power until I gave up trying to do things MY WAAAAAY!!!! And let Him have complete control.

    And that means understanding what is in that Old Book for yourself, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and where some minister disagrees what what is given to you about what is in the Scriptures, if you verify that minister is ‘wrong’, walking away from them and their ‘church’.

    That is the mark of a REAL Christian. Following the Word of God as opposed to the words of men.

    And this brings us back to the question I asked in my first post…..

    How does the National Presbyteria answer Christ’s call that ‘Now is the time for every man to take his purse and buy a sword’?

    Hope that helps…..


    [Only a fool would bring a sword to an automatic weapons fight.]

  38. Mr. Atheist says:

    To chuckles:

    If you’re trying to not control things to be your waaaay, then don’t bother blathering about how you’re trying to not do that. Does anyone really give a damn what you’re not trying to do? And keep on praying, because while you’re doing that you aren’t bothering the rest of us. If you are an example of a real christian then it’s no wonder your way of living has come under so much attack by the other morons in the world–the muslims.

  39. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: All
    RE: Heh

    Just the sort of remark to be expected from an ‘atheist’. They don’t care to hear ANYTHING about the Truth.


    [Atheist, n., One praying to God that he doesn’t exist.]

  40. Doc says:

    I used to be PCUSA for 4 years. I left when they elected that Palestinian to be President over their little circle jerk. They’ve also finally gotten the numbers for homosexual pastors too I think. You know, I believe that they’re for everything except the actual Bible. I got out and joined a very Conservative Congregational Methodist church and never looked back with anything but pity. The church I attended was somewhat Conservative but unwilling to say anything at all when it came to standing up against all this Liberal crap. It’s pretty much just a country club to go sing old songs at. Bet they’re even sponsoring planned parenthood on the side too.

  41. Phil says:

    I am a minister in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, but grew up in the PCUSA. The PCUSA is NOT the only Presbyterian denomination, as several have noted. When we, the Reformed Presbyterians, were persecuted in Scotland in the 1600s, *we shot back*. A regiment in the Royal Army, the Cameronians/Scottish Rifles (26th Foot) was later formed of our members when King William III and Queen Mary II came to roust out persecutor James VII/II. My particular congregation and elders permit open or concealed carry at any and all functions.

    And — Kerry #33 — sorry to burst your bubble, chum, but according to one of your own creeds we are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Read the _Quicunque_ or “Athanasian Creed”. If you don’t have a copy, ask your pastor. See what your own document says about who is truly in the Catholic Faith. We hold to every single thing in there. We were founded by Christ, too. Not Calvin, not Knox. They only helped us return to the ancient faith and further clarifications of Scripture taught by St Augustine of Hippo and St. Bernard of Clairvaux, amongst other Doctors of the Church.

  42. Californio says:

    But what about the Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered and elderly who will not have the means to defend themselves against the violent haters? And that is why this Presbyterian group is Racist, Sexist and Ageist. They are dismissed in shame and should go and reflect upon their self-righteous Hubris.

  43. Leonie Alemann says:

    My family abandoned the Presbyterian Church in the late 1960s when they donated $20,000 to the defense fund for terrorist/Communist Angela Davis.

    This more recent wingnuttery/anti-freedom behavior clearly demonstrates that their religious exemption from taxes needs to be yanked for political activity.

  44. teapartydoc says:

    I wasn’t aware that there were any Presbyterians remaining on the earth. I’d heard that there was a reverse type of rapture for them and they all ended up in “that other place”. You know. Where it’s hot.

  45. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: All
    RE: The Captain’s ‘Journal’

    Seems that the good ‘Captain’ doesn’t appreciate it when someone follows his link to his web and argues against him.

    My posts there are being ‘disappeared’. And, I suspect that I am forevermore ‘banned’ from posting at his site.

    Too bad. I thought he took the same oath I did back in the 70s when I took on a commission in the US Armed Forces to “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States”.

    Evidently the decorous debate that is so famously supported by the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights has no significance for him. No foul language. No abuse. Just ‘deletion’ of cogent args in support of this web-site’s opinion on the National Presbyterie (NP).

    I suspect that Herschel Smith is a member of that group. That goes far in explaining the deletion of my comments….as I noticed just a few minutes ago.

    Good thing I captured such before they were deleted. Eh?


    [The Truth, about NP, will out….]

  46. Chuck Pelto says:

    P.S. Be advised….

    ….some of the earlier comments remain. But the most recent are no longer there.

  47. Boyd says:

    Chuck. dude. 5 out of the 8 posts on the Captains Journal site are yours. How many did you make before they were deleted down to 5? Your every blogers nightmare. Overwhelm the conversation with weirdness and then create some conspiricy where none exists. You want to run on at the mouth get your own blog. The blog belongs to the blogger. They are under no obligation to put up with nutjobs like you. I’d have run you off long ago.

  48. Sebastian says:

    I am unconcerned about what the Captain’s Journal is doing to anyone’s comments. It’s his sandbox.

  49. Boyd says:

    “I am unconcerned about what the Captain’s Journal is doing to anyone’s comments. It’s his sandbox.”

    Ya, sorry. I got carried away. Not all trolls are on the other side.

  50. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Boyd
    RE: As I Said….

    ….the later posts were deleted. Included the one wherein I asked Reverend Mike to answer the question I’ve asked here.

    I suspect that was the one that broke the Captain’s back. Or maybe it was the fact that I was posting so much that the Captain couldn’t ‘cope’.

    But heck….what can one do to save the millions of babies that the PCUSA seems to support the murder of?

    Does that make the PCUSA more the ‘baby killers’ I was accused of being when I enlisted in the Army in 1970?

    Hope that helps.


    [The Truth will out….]

  51. Chuck Pelto says:

    TO: Sebastian
    RE: The Captain’s Sandbox

    Indeed. It IS his sandbox and he can do what he darn well likes in it.

    However, I point out that his comportment in this matter is hardly what one would expect of someone who purports to ‘uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States’ vis-a-vis some oath of office as a commissioned officer in the US Armed Forces, would do.

    It’s just an ‘indicator’ of the PCUSA’s approach to ‘decorous debate’, i.e., it ain’t there. Rather, the PCUSA is, as you report in the principle article of this thread, is just another political arm claiming to represent something they are not, e.g., affirming the right to bear arms. This in spite of the fact they support mass murder….vis-a-vis abortion.

    They’re hypocrites. And when you point that out to them, they don’t LIKE it.


    P.S. Keep up the Go[o]d work.

  52. Presbypoet says:

    As can be seen from my name, I am a Presbyterian, even before becoming Christian. Baptized as an infant at a local Presbyterian Church, born again at four, in my grandmother’s kitchen. It is too bad no one who actually knows what happened, has posted. I am fully aware PCUSA has facilitated evil, even clearly been used by the devil, (who is quite real, and really likes it when born again Christians fight).
    The list of evil done in the name of PCUSA is long, but I know the faithful fruit of many in PCUSA. For me both lists are long. A reason i did not post earlier; Saturday was our Presbytery meeting. I had a wonderful conversation with a faithful elder, from a faithful church, about being a disciple of Jesus.

    A major issue. Faithful Christians will not admit liberal “christianity” is a heresy,(a heresy, since it only follows a version of “teachings” of Jesus, not Him), in the same way too many think “Islam is a religion of peace”, and don’t understand it is a demonic heresy. Many accept liberal christianity is just another Christian branch, just another choice. The words “peace and justice”, hijacked by liberal christianity.

    Often it is only in hindsight evil is fully revealed. Years after he left, I read a book by the “pastor” who destroyed the church i was baptized in. He was a fully committed to “peace and justice”. He wrote in the book how he got discouraged. He was about to quit, but those who opposed him left the church. So evil succeeded. Often, as soon as one becomes aware of problems, they leave, as some who have posted have. Pastors fear to tell the truth, because they rightfully fear people will flee. So we pretend it’s fine. We act as though as long as we don’t admit there is a problem, there isn’t a problem. The problem. There is a problem.

    The PCUSA war started when the issue of fundamentals was lost in the 20’s in the Northern church. An infection rotted our Christian branch. Part flowed from a willingness to think the best of opposition. They use words that are sound theology, but twisted by their interpretation. Our confession of 1967, is an example. We didn’t understand what they meant. We trusted them in error. Disaster now the result.

    In the past 90 years, millions have been faithful members of churches, and thousands faithful pastors in both Northern and Southern denominations, now joined as PCUSA. The “Presbyterian Layman”, and others have warned us of our danger. From my perspective, we have fought those 90 years for an institution, now called PCUSA. It appears we have lost the final battle. The issue was not certain until NOW. Don’t blame faithful who stayed to fight. Blame those who fled the fight when the issue was in doubt. Read the PCUSA “Book of Confessions”, and Book of Order”. You will see it is fully faithful to Truth. This is why the devil made PCUSA a prime target. Institutions are important. The PCUSA carcass; buildings, property and resources, has immense value and power for good or evil. We shouldn’t abandon resources to the enemy. The way the PCUSA holds property is a major problem. Churches that try to leave can be stripped of property.

    A major item presented at our Presbytery meeting: a “gracious dismissial” policy. I have doubts about gracious. Faithful churches face a minefield trying to escape the clutches of a victorious liberal heresy. It is easy to say just leave, as it would have been easy to tell 1st Division Marines, trapped at Chosin Reservoir in Korea, just give up. It will be hard to fight our way out, taking as many people and resources as possible, to continue to fight for truth. Our fight is not just physical, but also spiritual.

    Your prayers are appreciated. We are not the enemy. We are a faithful remnant, in process of retreating. We know who we serve. We know who wins in the end, but He seems fond of sending us to battle, where issue seems in doubt. We will not give up, just continue to advance in a different direction. I hope this short history gives perspective on what has happened, and future of a faithful remnant.


  1. SayUncle » Presbyterian Church USA gets its anti-gun on again - [...] time, teaming with Bryan Miller. They have a history of this. PCUSA is, likely, only loosely affiliated with your…
  2. The Captain's Journal » The Wrong Way To Argue For Gun Rights - [...] at Snowflakes in Hell has a post up on Presbyterianism and gun rights concerning “Presbyterian” leadership [...]
  3. Weekend Link Love: The Strokes Edition | All American Blogger - [...] Snowflakes in Hell: Are You a Presbyterian? [...]