There seems to be a lot of passion for the Appleseed Project from instructors, and I feel like I’m doing a lot of nitpicking over problems I have with the program, that in the big picture, are relatively unimportant.  Defenders of Appleseeed have consitently stated that it is not for newbie shooters, which was a misperception I had of the program, and if that’s the case, would drop a lot of my objections to their training method and packaging.  I will reserve any further judgement until I’ve had a chance to attend one of these events.  Fair enough?

25 thoughts on “Reconsidering”

  1. One of the things I respect about you is that you’re too smart to fall irrevocably in love with your preconceptions, thus allowing them to become dogma. Falling into that trap is an easy temptation to succumb to, and I’m sure I’m guilty of having done so in the past.

  2. Eh, at some point you just kind of realize that you’re just nitpicking, and it’s not really serving any productive purpose. I never meant to get into a big fight over the project. I still question some aspects of Appleseed, but I am not about to suggest that Appleseed is evil, and will destroy shooting. If it gets people passionate, it’s going to be a net overall plus, and I’ve definitely seen passion on the part of commenters.

    In addition, I was basing my assumption that they are going after newbie shooters based on things I had been hearing, rather than based on what the organization was saying themselves, which I agree, appears to target existing gun owners who want to obtain more skill with the rifle.

  3. In other words, I shot my mouth off before really looking into it. It happens, and when it does, I should own up to it.

  4. Yum yum nits! *grin*

    I don’t always phrase things as well as I could, and when it’s something I’m really into, yep, passionate is the right word.

    Definitely fair enough.

    (I think the “new shooter” bit is more along the lines of “we aren’t going to turn away a new shooter by any means”.)

    I actually don’t know what corner of the country you call home – but we’d be happy to see you at any of the NY Appleseeds. Bring your .22 or your centerfire and plenty of ammo. :-)

    Peace. (Through superior firepower.)

  5. I’d like to comment on the “newbie” vs. “experienced shooter” aspect of this thread.

    The Appleseed Program states that they will take you from being a “rifle owner” to being a “rifleman”.

    Before running across the program, I’d known for 20 years or more that there are a whole bunch of rifle owners who may occasionally shoot their rifles, but don’t really know HOW to shoot them.

    I was one of them. Steps to firing a shot? Field positions? Mag changes, under a time limit? NPOA? MOA? Actually adjusting sights, not just moving them randomly until I hit what I happened to be shooting at that day at the distance I happened to be shooting at?

    Two days at an Appleseed taught me all these things I had been missing.

    Can I kick a door in and clear a building? No, Appleseed didn’t teach me that, and no one else has yet, either. I could afford the $70 for two days of Appleseed; I couldn’t afford the $1000 plus airfare for one of the big schools that would teach me to kick in a door.

    After attending two as a student, I became an instructor in training.

    My goal is to get all those people with a safe or closet full of guns they’ve put less than 100 rounds through in all the years they’ve owned them, get them out to the range, and teach them some of what they may have been missing. And it really is fun, too.

    I’ll take any newbie I can get there, but this really is aimed at the rifle owner who does more couch sitting than shooting.

  6. Sebastion, if The Guy’s offer won’t fit for you, I am one of the Instructors that does events somewhat closer to you.

    I cover NY and New England, primarily, and would be glad to have you.

    Folks, it’s takes a big man, with self confidence and not a frail ego to make the comments Sebastian has.

    I’m glad to see people of his cut in the world.

  7. I forgot to mention that I can provide a .22 (Ruger 10/22 with all the trimmings) and the ammo to use with it.

    Yeah, Zercool and I work together sometimes.

    We’ve got an Appleseed up in New Bremen, NY Sep 13/14 if that works.

    Though, I really would recommend taking The Guy up on his offer. He does mean what he says.

  8. ZerCool and Nickle,

    I live on Long Island. How far up are you guys from where I am? And what do you charge for participating in this shoot?

  9. Holy Crap! I just looked up where New Breman is. It’s a 10-hour drive from where I am. It’ll take me 2 to 3 hours alone just to get out of the NYC area with traffic. Is there anything closer to the Southern Zone? You’re way up there in the Northern Zone.

  10. OrangNeckInNY – there should be another Appleseed in May of 09 in VanEtten NY, which is just about dead center between Ithaca, Elmira, and Binghamton. Shouldn’t be more than a six hour drive, and if you’re a camping person, there’s plenty of great places for that up here. We’d love to see ya!

    A 2-day Appleseed with pre-reg is $70 in ’08, I don’t know if prices will change for ’09. Walk-on shooters are welcome, but it’s $80 instead.

    As Nickle said, loaners can usually be arranged, and .22 ammo is dirt-cheap.

    (The other big plus to the VanEtten shoot is that full-distance can be available, up to 300yd from the regular line.)

  11. I’m going to be very busy from now until the election. I won’t have many weekends free. If I attend one of these, it will have to be after November.

  12. I’ve been dubious as well. They seemed to have a Militia-BlackUNHeliopter vibe going for them. But I am also intrigued at the chance to get some shooting instruction in an inexpensive manner. I look forward to learning more about them. And perhaps for them to get a little closer with an event.

  13. While some of us may or may not wear a tin foil beanie in private, there is no talk of the whole “Militia-BlackUNHeliopter” thinggy at the ‘seed it self. No time for it.

    As for newbies, yes, they can come, are welcome, and sometimes do much better than some of the experienced shooters. This is simply due to a complete lack of bad habits ingrained over the years to break. I have seen, and others have too, still new in box rifles show up with wet-behind-the-ears-born-that-morning shooters show up to learn.

    Success is also not measured against the group. It is not a competition. The goal of hitting Rifleman (210 on the AQT) is just a number, proving that at least for one COF, you had the skills and brought it all together once.

    Is it satisfying? Yep.

    But it is only the begining.

    There is so much more to being a Rifleman, as opposed to a rifleman. Participation in local politics, getting new shooters involved, being an Ambasador for the Second Amendment (which garanties the rest!) all the time.

    The RWVA Appleseed Program has a slightly unofficial (at this time) motto. Shoot, Recruit, Communicate, Educate. The basis is simply this.

    The other three can gaurantee the first.

    Think about that.


    btw, recruit has noting to do with military. Recruit means simply recruitment of new shoters into the Gun Culture.

    Let me know about that ‘seed. Looks like the best time for you will be in the spring. Nickle is a fine Instructor, and has one heck of a program up there. Check him out sometime.

  14. Speaking as someone who used a sling in collegiate air rifle competitions (and did fairly well), did not use one for his military rifle qualification shoot (where the Navy just handed me an M-14 for the first time in my life and told me to go shoot the course… needless to say, I sucked), and now cheats and uses a bipod with his M1A, I would honestly be interested in attending an Appleseed. I know enough about shooting at the moment to be able to toss the BS flag up if something does not make sense, and enough to process what I do learn. And, hell, I cannot afford Front Sight and all the rest of the high-speed, low-drag training facilities (and even if I could, I cannot afford getting there), so Appleseed provides a lower-cost alternative for basics.

    All that said, though, I seem to live in a 5-hour bubble… meaning that no Appleseed event is taking place this year any closer to me than five hours. For a two day event, I surely am not springing for a hotel room that would probably cost more than the even itself…

  15. If Guy doesn’t want to post it (which isn’t totally unreasonable for a private email), assuming it’s not out on the wirrld-wide intarwebz – he could at least let Sebastian relay it to anyone interested.

    Sebastian, it is in your info, right?

  16. That’s what I figured. Since I enter it to post, I assumed that Sebastian could retreve it.

    I am also reachable at which is our forum. You may click on my member name and retreve it that way, or send me a pm.

    Aw heck, spambots are computer anyway, and if I get a ton of spam, it is my own fault.

    Let’s try it like this. Wanna play hangman? it is-f*rmb*y1536-y****.c*m


  17. The Appleseed folks had a booth set up at the Steel Challenge World Championships in California a couple of weeks ago, and I had the chance to visit with them a couple of times. They were nice folks, and I wish them well. No program is a perfect fit for everyone, but I think their efforts have merit.

    …….. Mr. C.

  18. Sebastion,
    I admire you for having strong opinions, but I admire you more for being able to set them aside until you have all the details. I find I have to do the same thing on occasion.

    This country needs more men with strong, passionate, relevant opinions. That seems to be something we are short of these days, and one of the things Appleseed is trying to help remedy.

    If you go to an Appleseed and have the same opinion of it afterwards, no problem. That, I can live with, though I will try to correct any problems in the program that we find are real afterwards.

    We don’t have all the answers to getting folks to learn, sometimes we have to wing it or make things work in impromtu fashion. We need more guys with the desire to help America, with more ideas, to make a better shooting program. We never turn down good ideas.

    If you are close to Texas, you are invited to be my guest at the Central Texas location here, and shoot on my dime, rifles, ammunition and meals included. The range is on my private property, 25 yard and 100-700 KD.

    There is an APpleseed location in Throop NY, in Auburn, that should have a shoot coming up. Guy can let you know any info on it Orange. I was just there in July for an event with Nickle, then we both went to Vermont for an APpleseed shoot at the military base there. There was a whole carfull of New York,”City Yankees” that came to the Throop NY event.

    They were recent legal immigrants from eastern block countries, Russia, Poland, Latvia. They were amazing. None had fired a rifle before, but they were filled with the desire to become proficient, and they did become proficient, including the young woman. Even though we had to shoot straight through weather that ranged from opressive sun and heat one day, to hours of torrential rain the next. No one complained or left.

    But what amazed me most was how the story of Americas freedom and liberty resonated with them. They had experienced the other alternative and wanted to become “American” Patriots and ,make sure that they would never have to be under a repressive regime again.

    As far as tin foil and black helicopters, I was working for this organization for a good while before I ever met anyone face to face. I finally went to an eight day instructors course. But all the while in the back of my head was the idea that they would probably turn out to be some type of undesirables or a cult. It was too good to be true. The people were too friendly.

    I even had a plan to purposely inspect other people’s naked bodies in the shower,(which was ice cold water, on a wooden crate, outside, directly in the middle of a gravel road), because I told myself that if I saw even one Nazi Swastika, or “white power” tattoo hidden somewhere, the deal was over.

    Thankfully no one had any and I have never looked back. The people I have met are the truest Americans I have ever desired to meet. I just wished I had met them earlier in my life, so I would not have wasted so much time, not working toward a better America, or with sorry friends.

    I hope to see you soon, or read about your experience at some point. My offer stand until you get to an Appleseed.

  19. I even had a plan to purposely inspect other people’s naked bodies in the shower,(which was ice cold water, on a wooden crate, outside, directly in the middle of a gravel road), because I told myself that if I saw even one Nazi Swastika, or “white power” tattoo hidden somewhere, the deal was over.

    If you’re trying to convince me to go to an Appleseed, talking about your plans to inspect other people’s naked bodies probably isn’t the way to go about it. Your other fellows come on a bit strong, but that’s…. out there dude. Sorry.

  20. Thate was just some late night sense of humor, there was no actual plan, I had just been joking with my wife about it before I left for the course, about how she might not ever see me again if it was a bunch of Hitler Youth there. And that if I saw someone with a Nazi or White Power tattoo on their back or chest, it would be a bad sign.

    But I didn’t.

    There, that was the whole plan above, in it’s briliant simplicity. I am probably the least “out there” person you will ever meet.

    And the offer to pay your way at a shoot in Texas still stands.

Comments are closed.