SayUncle does a great fisking of an editorial by Laura Washington. I have some comment myself on this part:
The rabid response of the gun lobby is damning, but impressive. They out-gun, out-email, gun-control advocates by more than 20 to one. Their ability to organize a rapid response is exactly the opposite of FEMA. The gun army, made up almost exclusively of white men from suburban and rural areas, is loaded for bear.
Emphasis mine. I think Bitter, Tam, Denise, ZendoDeb, and Squeaky would be interested to know that the “gun army” was made up exclusively of males. Pro-Gun Progressive, a resident of the Pigtown section of Baltimore, MD, might be surprised to find out that we’re exclusively suburban and rural. Kenn Blanchard might be surprised to learn we’re exclusively white. Jeff Soyer, who Washington’s article mentioned, is, in fact, a rural white male from Vermont, but he’s also a gay rural white male; not your stereotypical Bubba.
She may want to believe that we’re all just a bunch of angry white males, but we’re a cross section of America. We’re not the “gun lobby” she thinks we are.
Hey, I live and work in the heart of San Diego… not exactly the capitol of SoKal, but not the sticks either. Of course, I am a white male, and I do tend to get annoyed more than I would like, so I guess I help that particular stereotype.
About ten or so years ago Ted Koppel had a Nightline episode on guns that was supposed to be ‘balanced and fair’, etc. Guess what it boiled down to? “Gun control is basically a battle between urban blacks and rural whites”.
Which was one reason I stopped paying any attention to him at all.
My deja vu alert is going off…a variation of this entry has been written before. Which means that the gun-control dumbasses have used this argument before. Which means they’re spinning their wheels and going nowhere. Again.
There’s virtually no argument they use that they haven’t used before. It’s like playing Whack-a-Mole. The mole keeps popping up, and you keep whacking it. The game itself is nearly pointless, but if you stop whacking, you lose.
I’m a straight white male, but I live in Jersey City, work in Manhattan and am more liberal than conservative.
Oh, did I mention I’ve been vegan for 17 years? No hunting for me.
Some members of the “gun lobby” are also conservatives stuck “behind enemy lines” in such bastions of nanny socialism as NJ, NY, MA, MD, CA, etc. We see daily examples of how the reality of gun control is such a farce, and how the issue of gun control is used to divert attention from heavy-handed social engineering and any concept of personal responsibility or accountability.
That would explain why, when I was taking my range test for my Massachusetts gun license, there were more black guys than white guys (all from that backwoods hillbilly town of Boston) taking the test that day.
Closed-minded bigotry and ignorance – they’re not just for breakfast anymore.
wait as part of this ‘gun army’ do we get any cool hats, or ribbions for say living in a red state? how about combat stripes for living in CA/NYC/MA?
just let me know where i can get my gun army hat at :D
Obviously, you missed the “almost” word. You know, sort of how you folks miss about a dozen words from the 2A.
The fact is the NRA, GOA and assorted fringe groups are almost exclusively white males. Doesn’t mean you won’t find the odd female or minority–but it is overwhelmingly white and male.
Go to a gunshow–you can’t miss the evidence. Of course, that’s where the Turner Diaries finds its market.
I wouldn’t argue that the shooting community isn’t majority white male, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say “almost exclusively”, especially when we’re seeing women coming into the shooting sports in droves. I’ve met all kinds of shooters. Most of them white men, but I run into women, Jewish, gay, and African-American shooters all the time. Asians are actually a group that’s very uncommon in the shooting community. I would agree that the shooting community almost exclusively does not consist of people of Asian heritage, but, at least at the ranges I frequent on a regular basis, you run into all kinds.
Needless to say, folks in Nebraska or Montana’s mileage may vary.
Come now, Sebastian. I’ve been to gunshows across the country–they’re almost exclusively white and male. Yes, you will–from time to time–see a female (more often than not manning a table, than as a customer) or minorities–but they’re few and far between.
I’d also note that I’ve never been to a gun show that didn’t have displays featuring racist/anti-semitic/sexist material, along with the “self help” (pay no taxes, make millions with no money of your own, etc.) vendors.
Which gun shows have you been to?
I’d also note that I’ve never been to a gun show that didn’t have displays featuring racist/anti-semitic/sexist material
What type of material are you talking about? To be truthful, it’s a problem at shows, because most promoters don’t ask too many questions about the kind of books the book vendors sell, and there are some assholes out there.
The media has a habit of going into gun shows and trying to pass off militaria tables that have a lot of World War II collectibles as being neo-nazi paraphernalia. I actually think militaria dealers need to be more conscious about the image they are presenting to the public. We all know those dealers cater to collectors, but the general public doesn’t know that, and it’s easy to pass off a nazi flag for sale as being a promotion of the values that that flag symbolized, rather than just being an item of interest to militaria collectors.
I actually have a nazi flag myself that my grandfather bought back from WW II. It was passed down through the family. I’m not a militaria collector, but I understand why some people are interested in that stuff. I keep the flag, in addition to a German dress bayonet he brought back as well, as a reminder of my grandfather’s service during the war.
I’ve been to shows in NV, MN, VA, MD, KS, TX, LA, PA and I’m probably forgetting a number.
What type of material are you talking about? To be truthful, it’s a problem at shows, because most promoters don’t ask too many questions about the kind of books the book vendors sell, and there are some assholes out there.
I’m talking your Turner Diaries, Protocols of the Elders of Zion StormFront-type crap, How the UN is going to make slaves us all, etc.
I don’t really buy the argument the promoters don’t know who is selling what. Many vendors travel with a particular gun show as part of a circuit. Additionally, it’s not too difficult to vet vendors beforehand. Note that computer or car or other hobbyist shows, as examples, don’t seem to have these problems.
WRT war memorabilia, there are war memorabilia shows–why would this stuff show up at gun shows? You really have to wonder when this memorabilia is sold alongside t-shirts with Hitler on them (“The Western European Tour”) and Mein Kampf.
Hell, I got my copy of The Turner Diaries from those murderous Nazis over at Amazon.com
Yeah, and that stuff is found there as well—do you make sweeping indictments of the attendees of war memorabilia shows as well?
Uhm … I’m gonna take a wild shot in the dark here and guess that, er, maybe it’s because memorabilia collectors attend both, since, you know, guns get used in wars, and stuff?
I actually won’t disagree that gun show promoters need to do a better job of looking into what people are selling at the tables of their shows.
Uhm … I’m gonna take a wild shot in the dark here and guess that, er, maybe it’s because memorabilia collectors attend both, since, you know, guns get used in wars, and stuff?
Pretty much. There’s a lot of cross over. A lot of gun collectors collect from a certain period, and they also collect other things from that period. I’m not a period collector, but if I were, and I went to the show with the idea of picking up a certain type of Mauser, for instance, if I didn’t find it, I might look at picking up some other militaria just so the trip and admission fee wasn’t a total waste.
Again, the war memorabilia is often sold at the same tables selling Hitler t-shirts and StormFront-type tracts. If you’ve ever been to a war memorabilia show, that kind of vendor just doesn’t exist.
Yes, Guav, Amazon sells about any kind of book–even books about gun control. That’s what they do: sell books. Now why would a gun show sell books fantasizing about a race war? Why are they selling books about a Jewish plot to control the world?
I don’t think gun show promoters should look into anything, actually. Are you suggesting that they should dictate which legal items should or should not be sold? You really want to open that can o’ worms?
Because people buy them, Jade?
I mean, I bought it. I’m Jewish enough to get israeli citizenship, and my grandmother’s parents died in labor camps in WWII—I’m no Nazi.
But I don’t believe in restricting reading material, not at Amazon and not at gun shows. What really is your point? That gun owners are Nazis?
“often sold”?
Really? Evidence for that? From the shows I’ve been to, it’s more like ” occasionally has been sold”.
Now why would a dealer in memorabilia sell stuff related to that memorabilia? I picked up an old copy of Mao’s Four Essay’s at a 4H book sale.
But it’s OK Butterbar, we really don’t expect much more from you.
I don’t think gun show promoters should look into anything, actually. Are you suggesting that they should dictate which legal items should or should not be sold? You really want to open that can o’ worms?
I don’t think they should drive off book sellers or militaria dealers just because one might have a copy of The Turner Diaries among dozens of other books, or the other might have a nazi flag for sale. In an ideal world, I’d agree that gun shows should be a completely wide open forum where anyone could buy a table and sell whatever they wanted, but we don’t live in that world. We live in a world where there is a well finances and vocal movement, with the help of the media, to destroy gun shows in this country, and smear guns owners as extremists.
Both promoters and dealers need to understand that the media, and people like Jadegold, go to gun shows specifically to dig up evidence that gun shows are dangerous, and cater to nut cases, criminals and white supremacists.
Our issue doesn’t need that kind of PR smear, and I don’t see why it wouldn’t be a good idea for promoters to work with dealers who understand that, and help them cater their displays accordingly, and yes, if you know you have a dealer using a table at one your shows that prominently displays racist or sexist material, to refuse to sell him another table if he’s not willing to work with you on cleaning up his table.
To a large degree, that doesn’t happen now, and at least at the shows I’ve been to, I haven’t seen unquestionably racist material prominently displayed. But I have seen things that an unknowing person, or member of the media, would be able to easily portray as something it’s not. I have seen some sexist stuff at shows though. A lot of the old guys in this issue haven’t gotten used to the idea this isn’t a boys club anymore.
For the record, I’m only talking about monitoring folks who sell items that could be interpreted as sexist or racist. I don’t think promoters should force their shows to be bastions of political correctness. If you hate guns, and look down on their owners, you’ll find plenty at a gun show to offend no matter what you do.
But racist or sexist messages, even if that’s not the message intended, need to be watched out for, because that kind of thing will drive people away from our issue. I think we can all agree that having the shooting community be a more diverse group of people is beneficial, and allowing things in the community that might alienate non-traditional (e.g. not white males) shooters is a bad thing. Gun shows are a window into our community, and we definitely don’t want people who look into that window to walk away with the impression that we’re all a bunch of racist assholes.
In a nice bit of irony, JG is using the same broad brush tactics based off of anecdotal evidence that the racists et al use to label all minorities et al.
Guav, of course, is obfuscating the issue. Nobody is suggesting gun shows should or shouldn’t sell legal items. That’s Guav’s strawman.
OTOH, let’s not pretend that gunshows don’t sell racist/anti-semitic/New World order crapola. Let’s not pretend this is being marketed to “serious” collectors and not folks who buy into this ideology.
Guav’s “some of my best friends are Jewish..” schtick is worth the price of admission, though.
Sebastian’s concern is about PR. Again, I would note a majority of gun show patrons want this sort of stuff. They’re not interested in firearms as collectors, hunters, or self-defense fans–they’re interested in guns as a symbol of power or ego gratification.
“Again, I would note a majority of gun show patrons want this sort of stuff.”
“they’re interested in guns as a symbol of power or ego gratification.”
Talk about strawmen.
Jade, I was talking to Sebastian, not to you, when I asked what he meant by “paying attention” to whom is selling what. I wasn’t floating a straw man, I was asking him to clarify what he meant by his statement, which he then did.
Secondly, I didn’t say I have Jewish friends, I said I’m Jewish—the point being that one does not have to be a Nazi or even entertain any Nazi sympathies whatsoever in order to have an interest in procuring Nazi memorabilia or even extremist fringe material—material that is widely available at many places, not just gun shows.
I’m not surprised the point flew over your pointly little head though.
I don’t see folks swarming the book tables looking to gobble up whatever copies of The Turner Diaries that can be found. There are certainly racist assholes who are shooters. There are racist assholes who are golfers. Nothing I can do about that.
The demand for the militaria stuff at gun shows is there. Even I’ve gotten myself a few Ushanka hats at gun shows, which I’ve taken the commie pin off of (would you suggest gun shows cater to communists, and that communism is an ideology that many gun owners adhere to? Because there’s a lot of commie shit at gun shows too) before I wear it in public.
But considering my friend Jason, who is Jewish, is who I most often attend gun shows with, I would imagine he’d not go with me if the place was dominated by neo-nazi types.
Certainly there are golfers who are racist. Point is, you don’t see Turner Diaries at a golf expo. You might find some weird videos about training to putt better but no Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Guav’s schtick just gets better and better.
Not only do I have a copy of Mao’s “4 Essays”, I also have Hilter’s Mein Kampf and Marx’s Communist Manifesto along w/ militaria from both sides of the Civil War and over a dozen countries involved in WWI and II. I’ve read the “Turner Diaries” and “Protocols..”. I’ve also read the Bible, Koran, Talmud, and Satanic Bible.
So what pidgeon hole should I be stuffed into?
Sebastian = Guav now?
The misspeller’s “pidgeon” hole, Third. Obviously, you read the Classic Comics versions of those books.
And the butter bar has to go after spelling mistakes instead of providing evidence for its allegations.
What is this butter bar?
A ButterBar is a derogatory term for an O-1 in the military. Ensign or 2nd Lt. It’s derived from the single gold colored device they wear.
JD is beyond redemption. His soul is so blackened by dishonesty that there can be no saving of him. Let him be. He is so toxic that he will fatally poison himself if we ignore him.
Yes Thirdpower, I am Sebastian. And Kevin Baker is Say Uncle. Jade’s feeble reading comprehension continues unabated. Or maybe that’s just his schtick.
Ah… what does that have to do with JG?
Obviously, my use of separate and distinct paragraphs has confused and bewildered both Third and Guav.
In one paragraph, I respond to Sebastian’s comment that everyone is racist.
In the second, I note Guav’s schtick of “some of my best friends and family are..” is amusing.
I apologize for befuddling Guav and Third by using compositional trickery such as paragraphs.
A Visit to a Gunshow
HAHAHA … touché. That was genuinely funny. However, had you not a history of utterly confusing entirely different people with each other, we wouldn’t have questioned it in the first place.
Jade, please direct me to the comment in which I said anything about friends.
Wow. That link contradicts practically everything JG claimed plus makes assumptions that anyone who may want Nazi paraphernalia is a racist.
As for basic paragraph structure, there is no defined subject in the first but there is in the second partial paragraph. Since JD has a history of mixing up subjects, perhaps he should go take night classes on writing skills.
There are gun owners out there who certainly have nutty beliefs about taxes, and a lot of other things. I’ve talked to more than a few ham radio operators who have nutty beliefs. All subcultures have their weirdos.
Like I said, there are people in the gun owning community who are racist, sexist and/or anti-semitic. Some of them so much so I’d prefer they actually not have guns (though, I don’t think banning guns because of beliefs is a road we should go down, I would just prefer they took up needlepoint or something).
But as for Golf, does Augusta take women yet?
Once more, it seems I have confused Guav by my use of English language colloquialisms. Despite its rather widespread use, I can see how Guav might be scratching his head over the expression “some of my best friends are…”
I apologize for my assumption that English is your first- or second-language and the even more egregious supposition you have friends.
Butterbar Translation:
I just made crap up for my strawman and got called on it so I’ll just throw out more insults.
“shirts with Hitler on them (â€The Western European Tourâ€) ”
Hey, don’t knock that shirt. My dad won $200 in a “Most offensive t-shirt” contest because of that shirt.
But as for Golf, does Augusta take women yet?
I don’t know; but it is an issue as is those country clubs that don’t accept certain ethnic groups or faiths.
As I noted, you can find racists in most every group. The issue, however, is why you’d find such overt racism at gun shows. And why so many in the gun movement leadership either cater to racism or are outright proponents of racism.
I suggest the answer is pretty apparent. That’s the market.
Really? Why would you “suggest” that? Because that’s what you want to believe? Because calling people “racist” is one of the only things left to you?
Care to show some evidence of your allegations? Some sales figures. Attendance records. Something besides your oh so objective opinions. I’ve seen the same materials displayed at flea markets. Does that make flea markets “overtly racist”? The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not data.
There’s not as much racism in the “gun movement leadership” as you imagine. In fact, there are more than a few jews on the NRA board, and our past president was a Jewish woman. There are a few non-jewish women on the board. There are a handful of minority board members.
If the leadership is so racist, why did they shout down a proposal at last year’s member meeting by one of the members that NRA materials only be printed in English because, quoting the member as best I can remember “the right to bear arms is an American right, for people who speak English” or some other xenophobic crap. Keep in mind that any random member can get up and propose things at the member meeting. But that one went nowhere. You’d think a room full of racists would have jumped at that chance.
So you’re saying the NRA is part of the Zionist Conspiracy? :)
When it comes to politics, market forces do not always apply. A group will spend massive amounts of money to get out a political message, but it may not work. Likewise, a group could buy a table at a gun show and attempt to sell crap no one wants. They could be losing money or just have lots of time on their hands.
Oh, zany Jade.
I understand the “best friends” colloquialism, but it is used within the context of one race saying something borderline racist about a someone of a different race, and then justifying it by claiming that they “have friends” of that other race.
It’s not applicable when discussing your own race.
So you’re saying the NRA is part of the Zionist Conspiracy?
Please don’t give Larry Pratt ideas ;)
Sebastian: Get your copy of the NRA publication Freedom in Peril yet?
I’ve also noted NRA leaders like Ted Nugent, CharltonHeston, Jeff Cooper and the like have been known to make racist statements from time to time. These are the leaders, not just some anonymous member making a suggestion.
I have figured out what is wrong with JadeGold. He thinks he has an inferiority complex. Let’s assure him that such is not the case. He actually is inferior.
That being the case, there could be many causes. I do not know what might be done if the problem is caused by emotional or mental disturbance, unless perhaps it is related to a small physical stature.
If that be the case, Viagra could help him. No, no that is not what I meant. I meant that he might just grow taller and feel better about himself.
I have seen that, including the material that goes with it that puts it in context. Any racist overtones are purely in the imagination of people who claim they are there.
I wouldn’t classify Ted as a real leader. He’s on the board with 76 other people, doesn’t show up at meetings, and, as best as I can tell, wasn’t much more than a celebrity name on a ballot. You won’t get any argument from me that he doesn’t belong on the board.
Jeff Cooper is dead, along with my grandfather, who was, unfortunately, fairly racist. On a good day, if you could get my grandfather to refer to them as “colored people” you were making progress. A lot of people of that generation were racially insensitive or downright racist. That’s not excusing it, but it’s true. I’ve heard most of VPCs claims in regards to Jeff coopers comments, and yeah, some of them are pretty bad, but I’ve heard a lot worse from people of that generation who would not consider themselves racist.
Jeff Cooper wasn’t put on the board because he was a racist, he was put on the board because he invented modern handgun technique that’s used by nearly everyone today, including FBI, police officers, and the military. Previously, point shooting dominated, until it was shown that modern pistol technique was superior to that. It was because of Cooper’s contribution to the shooting community that he ended up on the board, not for his views on other subjects.
I actually thought that a lot of Heston’s forays into other right wing issues were a problem, but is Charleton Heston a racist? That would probably have been a shock to people at the March on Washington, which he attended. Heston made some anti-gay remarks which I didn’t appreciate, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was a racist.
So you come up with 3 out of 76 board members and that’s supposed to constitute a quorum for painting the leadership of the organization as racist? I could go into the leadership of any company in America if any significant size and come out with more than that. Hell, I could do better than that in the Senate of the United States.
Wow, you people actually try to debate with JadeGold? It’s a lesson in futility. If you haven’t dealt with him before, the basic pointers are as follows:
JadeGold is completely and totally intellectually dishonest.
JadeGold refuses to actually debate anyone. If you notice, he hasn’t answered a single one of your questions. He simply changes the subject, obfuscates, and begins insulting those who prove him wrong. In fact, you KNOW that you’ve just blown him out of the water when the snide remarks and insults start. I’ve seen him call an Army NCO a “chickenhawk” when he got really lost.
JadeGold wouldn’t know is own @ss from a hole in the ground. He’s been wrong on more subjects than almost anyone else I can name who isn’t in a government job.
JadeGold only looks at research that supports his fantasy world. Don’t even bother giving him links to evidence. You could force feed him evidence for a month straight and it wouldn’t do you any good.
Your best bet is to do what many people have done before – just ban him. Otherwise you’ll have nothing but a headache and his insulting blather littering your comment section. His only use is as an example of why you should never mix Prozac with cheap gin.
I’m not arguing for Jadegold, I’m arguing so people who stumble across this on google searches and what have you can see the other side doesn’t have workable arguments.
Ah. Well, good on ya then! I’ll drink a glass and toast to your patience and willpower.
Heh… sounds like a good idea. I think I’m just about done with this thread though.
Yes, we are familiar with Jadegold’s delusional shenanigans and tomfoolery, we just engage him from time to time for shits and giggles.
Doesn’t the Nuge require payments for his appearances at NRA events?
Yup
Again, the fact remains that Jeff Cooper was a racist. I daresay most any responsible organization would bar racists from its leadership regardless of their talents or accomplishments. Same goes for Nugent.
But those two are just a few examples. As I pointed out, “Freedom in Peril” graphically depicted criminals as black and hispanics and muslims. It portrayed George Soros as a stereotypical Jew in the same manner as Nazi caricatures. The NRA knows its market: and that market is angry white men like Ragin’ Dave.
You cannot deny gun shows sell racist crap. The evidence is right there for all to see–but you keep denying it. When Heston gives a speech talking about “white power” and blacks are always looking for a “handout” and David Duke lauds it–that’s evidence. Heston isn’t some obscure member–he was the public face of the NRA. When Paul Blackman (or is it Theodore Fiddleman) tells people the NRA is primarily composed of “non-big-city middle-class whites ” who aren’t welcome in big cities because they “do not look as if they belong in the inner city”–that’s racism. Again, this is your leadership speaking.
I’ve read the VPC press releases, and I’m not going to be convinced unless I see context. For the record, it was “white pride” and not “white power”. Here’s the context:
Here’s the speech that previous one references:
I’ll give you that’s over the top, in that I doubt that we’re close to having a secret police in this country coming around to tag der untermenschen, but that’s not anti-semitic.
One of my criticisms of Heston is that he kept bringing other grumpy conservative issues into the gun issue, which I think is a mistake. It should be noted that this speech wasn’t to NRA members, but to another conservative group. But, yes, there is a lot of angry white males out there. Angry because they feel they’ve been disenfranchised by the political class. Gun control as an issue has a lot to do with that. But is this statement racist? I don’t think so, but judge for yourself. These folks aren’t angry because minorities have the same rights they do, they are angry because people constantly look down on them, and tell them all the ills in the world are their fault. You know, kind of like Jadegold does :)
So there’s the statement in context. Racist? Sorry, I don’t think so. That is ground, if I were leadership in NRA, I’d not tread on, precisely because it can be taken out of context. But Heston wasn’t a politician, he was a conservative old man who spoke his mind.
Oh Sebastian, you and your compositional trickery known as “context,” are you trying to befuddle Jade?
Let’s just say “OK, Jade, you got us—gun owners are all racists!” and maybe he’ll just wander off.
You left out parts of Heston’s speech:
Mainstream America is counting on you to “draw your sword†and fight for them. These people have precious little time and resources to battle misguided Cinderella attitudes, the fringe propaganda of the homosexual coalition, the feminists who preach that it is a divine duty for woman to hate men, blacks who raise a militant fist with one hand while they seek preference with the other, New Age apologists for juvenile crime who see roving gangs as a means to only the merchandising violence as a form of entertainment for impressionable minds, and gun bans as a means to only the Lord-knows-what. We have reached that point in time when our social policy originates on Oprah. Its time to pull the plug!
The full text is here.
Again, you deny the evidence in front of your eyes. Heston was giving the speech as the leader of the NRA. His entire speech was framed around the notion of gun ownership.
Guav: No need to admit a thing. You’ve already demonstrated it repeatedly.
And you deliberately misquoted him earlier.
Notice how you call Heston racist because he berates Plack Panther supporters yet he was one of the earliest Equal Rights marchers.
I guess that was to subtle for you.
I’m not going to defend the content of Heston’s speech, because I don’t agree with much of it, but do I consider it racist? No.
Have we gotten to the point we can’t mention race in this manner? I don’t think criticizing some parts of the black community makes someone a racist. Heston should have chosen his words more carefully, and I don’t agree with the socially conservative message he’s expressing, but I don’t think it’s racist.
Poor Third. The “Plack Panthers” are threatening him.
Unfortunately, for Third and other racists, the Black Panther Party disintegrated sometime in the early- or mid-1970s. So, when Heston gives a speech–in 1997, about a quarter century after the demise of the Black Panthers–you have to wonder what “militant blacks” he was referring to. The NAACP?
Yes, that’s ‘to’ subtle.
I don’t think criticizing some parts of the black community makes someone a racist.
There are ways of doing it without creating stereotypes or smearing the entire black community, as Heston did. Again, the evidence is before you, Sebastian, and you refuse to acknowledge it.
Ah, now I’m a racist because the Butterbar says so. How cute.
Well, there is the New Black Panthers group… though it has little to do with the previous one (however, its members are quite militant).