Zimmerman Arrest Report

Kudos to Weer’d for uncovering the police report of the arrest in the Zimmerman case. I had not previously come across this. The offense description in this case was Homicide, Negligent Manslaughter, Unnecessary Killing to Prevent Unlawful Act. The statue in question is here. But that crime is still subject to the qualifications here. In other words, if you don’t fall into the exceptions in the latter section, you’re guilty of the crime in the previous section.

142 thoughts on “Zimmerman Arrest Report”

  1. The back of his cloths wet and with grass on them. Bleeding. Compliant with the RO.

    Yeah, that tends to support Zimmerman’s story. Maybe the knucklehead will walk.

    1. But he didn’t go to the hospital and this contradicts reports of his needing stitches…..

      1. Errr, you don’t have to go to the Emergency Room to get stitches, in fact, if there’s no compelling reason, I’m sure outpatient treatment is a lot cheaper. Of the 3 times in my life I’ve needed “stitches” (scare quotes because the last time Dermabond was used), the one that wasn’t the result of a hard fall onto pavement was done by my pediatrician in his group’s office during normal hours.

        1. The arrest report says he was rendered first aid by the Fire Department EMTs in the back of the police cruiser.

          I also haven’t heard anything about stitches. Also while I’m not an EMT it seems that the simplest explanation is everything would have been blunt-impact trauma from fists, possibly the Ice Tea bottle, and impact on the lawn (which in Florida are hard enough to bounce a tennis ball on) or possibly the side-walk street. He may have only needed a compression bandage for the head wound.

          I’m sure his lawyer will present pictures of his face the next day as evidence of how severely he was beaten.

          1. Even a superficial head wound will bleed a lot, but they also tend to stop bleeding faster than the amount of blood would suggest. It’s entirely possible that it was a small, shallow laceration that had stopped bleeding by the time EMS got around to him. Remember, it was probably at least several minutes after EMS arrived before they bothered with him at all. The recent, witnessed, single GSW in cardiac arrest where CPR was initiated rapidly gets priority over the Awake, Alert, Oriented, and ambulatory guy with a bloody nose and a cut on his head. I suspect nobody even looked at him until either a second ambulance arrived or after they stopped trying to resuscitate Martin.

    2. Tends? It completely supports what I gather is his account.

      Of course, it would also support him initiating physical violence, getting the worst of it, and then shooting, which is of course not legit self-defense.

      1. Martin’s autopsy will be key. Does Martin have any bruising? If his only damage is the bullet wound, it will really hurt the prosecution’s case.

      2. I rather agree with you. Z started it, got his butt kicked, knowing this was just a skinny little kid. His pride was injured, his anger problem erupted and he murdered Trayvon. More than anything, I believe Zimmerman mounted Trayvon’s back, place the muzzle on Trayvon’s back and shot. Otherwise, why was there no blood on Z?

        1. I don’t think you agree with me at all, seeing as I said this provides support either way.

          Getting to specifics, for your theory to be correct, that Martin was shot in the back, there would have to be a major conspiracy among the authorities involved, the autopsy would have to be falsified and all the first responders who saw the wound or wounds and if the latter who can recognize entry and exit wounds would have to have kept quiet. Not to mention the one or two eyewitnesses who saw Zimmerman on the bottom before the shot, plus other less strong evidence that’s how it ended.

          As for “no blood of Martin’s on Zimmerman”, not only do we not know if that’s the case, I know that in non-human animals entry wounds do not necessarily immediately bleed. In fact, I actually tested this as it were within the last month or so with a probably lower velocity and definitely wider round than Martin was shot with (.45 ACP 230 gr Gold Dot in a 4 inch barrel).

    3. Zimmerman in my opinion is pretty well screwed. The fact that he is bloody and has grass proves he was lying on his back. And he was hit…it in no way proves justified self-defense.

      The fact that Martin was killed between two houses and no where near Zimmerman’s vehicle pretty much puts his case in jeopardy. He claimed he was returning to his vehicle and was jumped from behind.

      There is now a very strong presumption that Martin acted in self-defense. And Zimmerman looks to be the aggressor.

      1. Your inferences are simply not supported by those limited facts. His injuries and grass on his back supports his claim of being attacked – the foundation of a self-defense claim – and that he was in a vulnerable position.

      2. I have one quibble, but it’s a rather important one: Zimmerman doesn’t have to prove his self-defense claim, the prosecution has to prove that either it wasn’t self-defense, or that he is not covered by the “stand your ground” statute.

        The burden of proof lies on the state, not on Zimmerman.

        1. What law book are your reading? The burden of proof shifts to the defendant to establish self defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

          1. Under common law, and in the majority of states, you are correct. However, Florida’s statutes, as quoted here, appear by my reading* to shift the burden to the state. This also appears to be the consensus by the police, prosecutor, and others in FL’s judicial system.

            Regardless of whether I am correct in that interpretation or not, in this case he does have a preponderance of the evidence: There is an eyewitness report of him being held down and beaten, and physical evidence of injury consistent with the witness report. On the prosecution’s side, there is no evidence he was engaged in unlawful activity, no evidence that he did not have a legal right to be where he was, and no evidence to contradict his claim that he was the one who was physically assaulted first.

            Any one of those three would nullify the immunity brought by his self-defense claim, but the standard of proof is not clear from the statute. The general rule is that statutes are intrepreted in the light most favourable to the accused. In the absence of clear guidance within the statute, and in the absence of case law to the contrary, this should mean “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” before any prosecution can go forward.

            * IANAL, yadda, yadda, yadda.

            1. Ummm, Zimmerman followed after being told by police dispatch not to. He was also asked to meet the police by the mailbox. He refused, saying he will call them back to meet him somewhere else. That will severely hurt Zimmerman’s case. It clearly shows intent, and he disregarded the order to not follow. Sorry. Not self defense.

              1. 911 dispatch can’t “order” anyone to do anything. And his failure to comply does not in and of itself negate self-defense, think a bit deeper about the issue.

              2. Maybe get your facts straight while you are at it. After dispatch suggested, “We don’t need you to do that.” He said, OK. When did he refuse dispatch?

                Also, he asked that they call him back when they got there so he could tell them where he was, not the other way around.

                It’s the little things.

    1. It says “Offense Report” at the top. I’d call it a Police Report rather than an Arrest Report if I wanted to use a more familiar term.

    2. There’s a bit in the report about Zimmerman being cuffed, put in the squad car, and then taken to the police station for questioning.

      1. You are claiming he was arrested? OK, what’s his bail (since he’s out on the street) and when is the preliminary hearing?
        I don’t know why you don’t just say “I made a mistake” and correct it.

        1. Bail is set as a condition of release pending trial, usually AT the preliminary hearing. Trials don’t happen until a defendant is charged.

          There have been no charges filed yet.

          So…arrested, not charged. Therefore no bail (yet).

          As has already been discussed earlier on this (and other) threads, cuffs and questioning raise “encounter” to the level of “arrest”. Whether there’s further legal action beyond that is what we’re all waiting to see. (And there is, a grand jury is being empaneled, and will indict if they so decide.)

        2. Quit quibbling. It only makes how tenuous your “argument” is even more obvious.

  2. Check out the address on Google. That’s not anywhere near where a truck would be parked.

  3. Zimmerman is screwed. The facts no longer matter. Once the media painted Zim as white, and Trayvon as a black victim, it became an egregious hate crime of white on black murder.

    All of the recognized national hate mongers will be beating their chests and tying nooses, while justice will take a back seat and reason will no longer matter.

    Again, the facts no longer matter. Feel-good law has already hung Zimmerman.

    I would NOT want Zimmerman to represent my ideals, and I can understand that he made some choices that I would have ignored, but politically-correct emotion should not have an influence on meting justice.

    Jesse, Al, and Louis will, I expect, raise such a racial fever, that I assume Trayvon will not be the last corpse in this story. Very sad.

    1. Fact: Zimmerman was in his car, in no danger of alleged ‘self-defense’ legal excuse.
      Fact: Zimmerman drove, car-stalked, an innocent child that walked out of a store after buying candy.
      Fact: Zimmerman called 911, “Painted Himself Racist”, using racist words, in recorded 911 calls.
      Fact: Zimmerman is 260 pounds, complained in 911 calls, of a 140 pound child Walking, nothing else.
      Fact: Zimmerman went against 911 instruction to stay in vehicle; then parked, exited, chased child.
      Fact: Zimmerman is a large adult male who shot and murdered a very thin child, while the child’s back was turned.
      Fact: Zimmerman told police he shot the child, but is a free person with an unmarked record, alive and free to do anything he wants or go anywhere.
      Anyone who supports Zimmerman, call him, and if we are lucky, maybe he’ll move next door to you.

  4. Every time I renew my CHL, the instructors spend most of the class time reminding us what a terrible responsiblity weapon’s carrying is. Although Texas has a Castle Doctrine law, we are encouraged to avoid confrontation. We are told to shoot only to stop. We are not to pursue. We may legal carry, but we are not police.

    This situation the anti-rights blood dancers will love. No matter who was in the right, its a tragic situation.

  5. Interesting that we finally find out that that innocent looking skinny 12 y/o is actually 6ft and 160 pounds. Also Zimmerman is 5’9″.

      1. In highschool I had a friend who was 6′ 160lbs. He could hit like a truck. I would have wagered on him over some guy who was much bigger but not in great shape any day of the week.

        1. Zimmerman also has a history of violence (domestic and assaulted a police officer). He has also made over 40 calls to the police department of “suspicious Black people” in the past year. He was also ordered to not pursue Trayvon. Sorry. Zimmerman is screwed. Rightly so.

          1. Zimmerman also has a history of violence (domestic…

            Which was the usual mutual “he says, she says” (both accusing the other of violence), which didn’t rise to the level of his ex-finance being able or willing to file a criminal complaint. The court’s response was to order both to not see each other for a year.

            and assaulted a police officer).

            Which was so serious and provable in a court of law it went into a diversion program, so his official conviction record is clean. If this was a serious assault I really doubt they would have been satisfied with that.

            Also, as I understand it, the above generally can’t be used by a prosecutor in a criminal case.

            He has also made over 40 calls to the police department of “suspicious Black people” in the past year.

            I wasn’t aware they were of suspicious Black people, e.g. in this case he didn’t even know the race of Martin when he made his 911 call.

            The number of calls he’s made to the police since moving there has been reported to be 87. As I’ve noted elsewhere, in none of these incidents has he done anything criminal, and they haven’t annoyed the police to the level of charging him with Disorderly Conduct (especially if his confrontations were sufficiently alarming) to get him to stop.

            He was also ordered to not pursue Trayvon.

            Since when does such an “order” by a police dispatcher carry any weight of law?

            I’ve also commented previously that we know absolutely nothing about the history of the facts on the ground (well, there just came out something about a revent string of burglaries but I didn’t read it (in general I’m not going to trust anything the MSM publishes in this case)). We don’t know if such “aggressive” patrolling was warranted (although we know there are lots of places in the US where it is), nor do we know the history of what happened if Zimmerman or others made such calls and stayed put (i.e. we could well suspect that the suspicious characters will be long gone before the police arrive).

            I’m not saying what he did in general was wise or necessary, but I do know that many recommended policies by e.g. the police and our liberal betters (all too often directing the police) have resulted in a lot of decivilized neighborhoods. Including of course gun control policies.

            1. That domestic violence complaint tells me a lot about the kind of person Zimmerman is and whether he is generally truthful or not.

              He filed after her which generally means he filed in retaliation for her filing. The article stated “He said she called him Aug. 8 and invited him to spend the night. He said he declined to stay overnight, and his ex accused him of leaving to see another woman or to “party” with his friends.”

              Right. This is a woman who is so angry she’ll go to court and file a domestic violence complaint, yet she wants him to spend the night? I’m not buying it. Her version “He stopped by and wanted to talk” sounds more logical for a couple who had broken up.

            2. Woah! Important correction: Zimmerman called the police “46 [times] over a 10- to 11-year period — roughly four calls per year — and not four calls per month as the initial police statistics revealed.” It was apparently a 2011-2013 vs. 2001-2012 typo.

              That puts a rather different light on a whole lot of this.

              HT Jack Dunphy if PJMedia, who adds “(The website Crimemapping.com lists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)

              Hmmm, according to Dunphy, the dispatcher told him WRT to following Martin “We don’t need you to do that”, which falls rather short of an “order”.

            3. http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/20/george-zimmerman-calls-trayvon-martin-fcking-coon-911-call-audio/
              “in this case he didn’t even know the race of Martin when he made his 911 call.”, Yes he was aware of Martin’s race as the link above shows.

              “Since when does such an “order” by a police dispatcher carry any weight of law?” Whether it has the exact weight of law is irrelevent. If you’re on trial, and the prosecution lawyer says “the dispatcher advised you not to follow and you ignored him and followed anyways and someone ended up dead by you”, that’s looks bad in a trial.

              1. That was based on an earlier and obviously incorrect report; as usual original sources are to be preferred. Or maybe I misremembered and the report was something like Zimmerman claiming he didn’t initially know Martin’s race.

                As for your second point, it’s entirely unestablished as far as we know that Zimmerman continued his chase, a theory we’ve in fact been discussing. Plus the dispatcher’s advice was rather weak, “We don’t need you to….” And, yep, it’s obviously going to look bad at a trial (although as I’ve implicitly noted elsewhere, if we followed all that sort of advice we’d decivilize even faster), but that’s not the point I was making.

                I’m focusing on whether there’s a basis to charge him; so far I don’t see that, but obviously we don’t have a fraction of the info the police have collected to date.

          2. Zimmerman also has a history of violence (domestic and assaulted a police officer). He has also made over 40 calls to the police department of “suspicious Black people” in the past year. He was also ordered to not pursue Trayvon. Sorry. Zimmerman is screwed. Rightly so.

            Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not know all the facts (and neither does anyone else, at this point), so I can’t say whether he is guilty or not.

            My point was simply that the disparity in sizes doesn’t make a bit of difference in a street fight. It is generally true that a larger person will be able to kick the butt of a smaller person, but ONLY when their physical fitness and fighting skills are similar or in favor of the larger person. If the smaller person is in good physical shape and knows how to fight, while the larger person is out of shape and isn’t a scrapper, then 9 times out of 10 it will be the smaller person with the better skill set who will win.

  6. Question: many people keep stating that GZ confronted or attempted to ‘apprehend’ TM, but what evidence is there of this?

  7. SPQR : Does it? Because I see nothing inconsistent with someone doing ‘observe and report’. We know he followed on foot, but there is nothing I see to indicate that he was attempting to confront, rather than just to be able to tell the cops where he went.

    Notice his response when the operator tells him he doesn’t need to follow.


    What if, entirely unknowing, he got between Martin and his house, and he just ran into him returning to his truck as directed? Is there ANY evidence that contradicts this?

    1. What if, entirely unknowing, he got between Martin and his house….

      His father’s girlfriend’s house, wasn’t it? I.e. Martin may have acted “suspiciously” because he’d gotten confused backtracking after getting his stuff.

      I don’t think any of us are ready to write our version of J’accuse but the more facts I learn about this incident (e.g. the police report, police calls per year, this transcript) the less worse it looks.

    2. What about the girlfriend’s conversation? Phone records indicate that call started at 7:12 and ended at 7:16. That time frame partially overlaps Zimmerman’s call to 911. She heard the start of a confrontation.

      I wonder if the police are going to get the GPS tracking information off both Martin’s and Zimmerman’s phones?

      1. According to a friend of mine who’s a major Android programming type, cell phone GPSs are often not good enough for your desired purpose. They often don’t get frequent fixes (and that would cost in battery life, now that I think about it), and extrapolate based on previous fixes and computed velocity. And some have accelerometers, but I don’t know if they’re used for that.

        However this information may not be stored on a phone (costs battery life and memory, both are in short or limited supply, but I seem to remember reading tha the iPhone does some cute location hacks). The police ought to have whatever Zimmerman’s cell phone was reporting when he called 911 but it’s iffy if any system including his phone was recording Martin’s location.

        1. Getting conflicting information on this point. I first thought of the GPS option after watching tv. In a recent episode of the show “Castle” in an episode named “47 Seconds”, there is a scene in which investigators get their hands on the cell phone movements around where a bomb was planted and it clearly shows one blip moving to the location the bomb was planted and then exiting the area quickly. Suspicious of tv episode I have tried to research the question and came up with this today:


          “Your cell phone can also be used to track you: information about the cell towers used by your phone — which law enforcement agencies can use to reconstruct your movements — is held for at least a year, with some providers retaining it indefinitely.”

          If this technology is in fact available, Zimmerman’s story can be supported or refuted if he in fact stopped following Martin and headed BACK to his truck when the dispatcher told him he didn’t need to follow Martin and Zimmerman said “ok” or shortly thereafter. Zimmerman’s states that Martin came up from BEHIND him and confronted him. If those cell signatures can in fact be recontructed, at least Zimmerman’s account of his movements can be checked.

          1. Ah, my understanding is that the “Cell towers used by phone” information that is retained for long periods by carriers initially had nothing to do with GPS although I don’t know if it’s been added. This info is necessary for the system to function (i.e. to change towers when you’re on the move) and I believe the reason that they keep this info (which costs money, even more since they have to supply it to the authorities when presented with a proper writ) is that mining it tells them about problems with their system. Areas where connections are lost, that are serviced by too few channels, where certain types of cell phones are having problems, etc.

            It’s not massively accurate, certainly less than GPS; the Wikipedia article says it can get as good as 50 meters in an urban area.

            What you desire is beyond the initial design parameters of GPS, although enhancements, performance exceeding expectations and various tricks have potentially closed the gap. However I don’t know to what extent these are used in cell phones (again, there are if nothing else power issues) and people don’t want to be eternally tracked with 10 centimeter precision….

            1. Cell tower trilateration isn’t even that accurate; try several hundred m error radius. Unassisted GPS is good for about 50 m, and assisted about 5 m; but that’s taken at the phone, or sent to the authorities as part of a e911 call (and only as part of that call).

              Don’t believe what you see on TV.

  8. Here’s a contemporaneous eyewitness report (as … relayed by the media) from February 27th:

    […] A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

    “The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

    John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

    “And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

    HT Instapundit reader Jeff Brown. And the former, who is a lawyer, CCW holder, and law professor who writes good papers for us, closes with:

    So Trayvon Martin was on top of a guy he was beating, and then he got shot. I suppose this doesn’t entirely prove self-defense, but it should certainly count as “apparent evidence” — evidence that was apparent long before the media and Al Sharpton (but I repeat myself) began packaging the narrative here.

    1. If the man in the red shirt, (Zimmerman) was on bottom facing Martin and ended up on top AFTER the gunshot, it would be highly plausible that Zimmerman would have blood on his clothing where Martin would have fallen on him after being shot. Or, did Martin get off Zimmerman and start to run? Was Martin shot in the back??? Where was Martin shot?

      1. This is the first I’ve heard of the concept of “blood on his clothing”; I’ve read the police “Offense Report” and the last officer’s account detailed Zimmerman having a bloody nose, a bleeding wound on the back of his head and clear signs having been on his back. Presumably they impounded his outer clothing and that was or could be tested for blood and who’s. Unless the local authorities are totally incompetent an autopsy was done (and I think many states require one in circumstances like this) and presumably it was consistent with Zimmerman’s account (“presumably” because they didn’t charge him).

        Could Martin’s family, which is suppressing through a lawyer the release of his school records, authorize a release of the results of the autopsy?

        1. Blood on black of head, grass and water stains on back, He tripped and fell on his back…

      2. I questioned this too. If Zimmerman shot Martin while underneath him on the ground, Zimmerman should have had blood on his clothes. How did Martin end up face down with his hands underneath him on the ground?

        1. It’s possible he got up and then collapsed. Generally speaking, guns aren’t the instant death machines movies portray them as. With the exception of a very narrow area in the head, even fatal gunshot wounds take a bit to kill. A shot clean through the heart will still give a person some time before losing consciousness. There was a police report I remember reading, presented as an example of how much of a compromise pistols were on stopping power, where cops shot at a suspect, thought they missed, chased the guy up several flights of stairs only to find his body. He was shot through the heart, but made it up a flight of stairs before finally collapsing.

        2. If Zimmerman shot Martin while underneath him on the ground, Zimmerman should have had blood on his clothes.

          Any blood may have been caught in Martin’s own clothing before getting on Zimmerman.

          How did Martin end up face down with his hands underneath him on the ground?

          I could be the way Zimmerman pushed him off afterward. Or, as Sebastian noted, Martin may not have died immediately and turned himself over.

  9. Quickly, in my less than 2.5 minute edit window since I hit post after the above by Jon: continuing the above theme on spinning:

    And now I’ve looked at another item from that Instapundit entry; the title itself tells you a lot:

    As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?

    You judge for yourself why….

    One other item that hasn’t been covered here, again from the media for what they’re worth but it does agree with the police report etc.: Martin’s father says the voice crying for help wasn’t his son’s.

      1. And the father has changed his opinion as well, but without voice analysis it sounds like eyewitness reports by the 911 callers detailed below by Bolo242 easily established who was saying what.

  10. Ive been listening to the 911 calls with headphones.
    In 911-2 the man says they’re wrestling in the back of his porch.
    In 911-3 the one with the load yelling.
    The VERY FIRST thing you hear Is someone yell “Im Waiting”
    This is almost cut off by the phones first connenting.
    Before even the dispatch intro.
    At .03 secs you hear “Get Him Off”.
    At .06 secs you hear “Someone Help”.
    At .26 secs you hear the yellers voice brace for a hit from an object.
    And then an object thrown or smashed onto the yeller.
    Maybe twice.
    The Impact scares the husband that he says.
    “Send a car now”
    George might have held out longer.
    But when this object was used and noone still came.
    George had had enough and at .44secs used his gun.

  11. Bolo242: Thanks!

    And again I note the more we examine hard evidence, the 911 calls in this case, the less worse it looks. Presumably some of those making them witnessed the denouncement and were interviewed by the police, establishing what happened at the end.

    So we’ve got the police call by Zimmerman at the beginning which doesn’t sound bad, e.g. if he refused the suggestion to stop following Martin isn’t apparent from the Mother Jones supplied transcript, we now know why Mother Jones, which illustrated their article with a picture of the 11? year old Martin, didn’t see fit to provide transcripts of the later 911 calls, the major question I see now is what happened in-between.

    Zimmerman’s reported account of being assaulted (from behind?) while on the way back to his truck seems to be in accord with the above; a map of his movements would be helpful. Depending on his cell phone’s GPS (very iffy) it might be higher quality than normal during his phone call, but if not already plotted out by the police you can be sure some will be provided if this goes any distance in the courts.

    The question I’d like examined is where do the reports of a “confrontation” come from and how reliable do they seem to be? We’ve heard indirectly through the media after it became a cause célèbre Zimmerman’s account (which if it includes a “confrontation” we can assume it sounded good for Zimmerman and therefore wasn’t reported), we’ve heard in the same period a report by someone who claims to be his girlfriend … don’t remember how and if it’s consistent with any of the above. If Martin initiated the physical assault we have to wonder why, especially if they didn’t talk in this in-between period. Although according to Zimmerman he took off running, which suggests any one of several things.

    If Zimmerman is lying a good lawyer would be able to take his account apart, although at this point I’d assume he’s not going to say another word and stand by what he initially said to the police, which didn’t prompt them or the local prosecutor to charge him (the latter and the police chief have stepped down for the time being, BTW).

    All in all still a mess of course, but it sounds to me like how much of one depends on whether they talked to each other. If they didn’t, Zimmerman is being publicly lynched for no good cause at all, if they did, it sounds like we have to depend on his contemporaneous account.

  12. Also, Zimmerman’s weight keeps getting tossed around as 240-250lbs. Anyone have any idea where that number came from? There is no weight listed for him on the police report…

    It kinda looks like at some point someone just made it up and it got repeated so many times it became a ‘fact’.

  13. Everyone here is making a self defense case for Zimmerman, but what nobody is considering is maybe Martin was beating up Zimmerman in self defense. An unarmed guy is walking to a relative’s house from the corner store, he is being followed by some strange acting man. The strange acting man approaches him (most likely in a confrontational manner). Martin feels threatened (rightfully so, in my opinion) and defends himself by assaulting the stranger who is confronting him in an aggressive manner. During the confrontation, Zimmerman probably realizes he screwed by confronting the guy and that he might not be the one who walks away from it alive, so he pulls out his gun in desperation and shoots Martin.

    I don’t consider that self defense on behalf of Zimmerman, I consider that to be one really stupid guy who thought he had superhero powers and got screwed when he realized he didn’t. He should have listened to the police when they told him to not confront Martin and that they would send a patrol car to investigate. Neighborhood WATCH means WATCH, not stalk and kill.

    Martin had no choice but defend himself once he was confronted and had he not been confronted, he would still be alive. Maybe Zimmerman did not INTEND to kill Martin, but he instigated every situation that led up to it and when he realized if he didn’t kill Martin, he might die, he chose to save himself.

    Zimmerman is a coward and should probably be featured on America’s Most Stupid.

    Martin was unarmed, walking home from the store, not looking for trouble……there is no self defense for Zimmerman.

    1. Everyone here is making a self defense case for Zimmerman, but what nobody is considering is maybe Martin was beating up Zimmerman in self defense.

      Actually, I think Martin could have a plausible self-defense claim also, if things had gone the other way. It depends on the exact circumstances, and how reasonable his belief that he was about to have unlawful force used on him.

      But I agree, generally speaking, on Zimmerman being extremely unwise in his behavior that lead up to the shooting. Though based on Zimmerman’s statement, and that of witnesses, Zimmerman’s self-defense claim is plausible. In order to defeat it, the state will need to uncover evidence that casts doubt on it. It’s actually pretty difficult for authorities to disprove self-defense cases where the other guy is dead, and there were none or few direct witnesses. It sometimes means that questionable defendants sometimes get acquitted, but in our system of law we can’t send people to prison because we just know in our hearts he’s guilty.

    2. Everyone here is making a self defense case for Zimmerman, but what nobody is considering is maybe Martin was beating up Zimmerman in self defense. An unarmed guy is walking to a relative’s house from the corner store, he is being followed by some strange acting man. The strange acting man approaches him (most likely in a confrontational manner). Martin feels threatened (rightfully so, in my opinion) and defends himself by assaulting the stranger who is confronting him in an aggressive manner.

      Actually, I believe several commenters here (including myself) have proposed that theory, though it may have been in the comments for one of the several other posts at this blog on the subject, and not this particular post. The reason most of what you see at this point is (at least nominally) favouring Zimmerman is simply that there are no confirmed facts to contradict his self-defense claim, and the facts that are available at this point are at least superficially supportive of his claim. Many, if not most, commenters are noting that critical information is unknown – i.e., did Martin attack Zimmerman from behind as Zimmerman claims, or did Zimmerman make some kind of physical contact causing Martin to attack in self-defense?

      And I would also note that many, if not most, commenters (not necessarily on this post, but on many posts) are also agreeing that Zimmerman should not have left his vehicle to follow Martin. But that fact, without other evidence of who confronted who, and how, is not sufficient to convict, or even arrest, Zimmerman.

  14. My main question was.
    Where was Zimmerman when he got out of his truck??
    If he left it at the mailboxes like he told dispatch.
    Anyone with a map of the area knows that is right across the street from the apartment that Trayvan died behind.
    In Zimmermans 911 call he jumps out of the truck at 2.09.
    You hear the (Left your keys in the Ignition bings and a door slam)
    His call lasted another 2 mins.
    You can get pretty far in 2 mins.
    If he even ran that far.
    I just really think that its a coincidence that is were they ended up.

    1. Just based on Zimmerman’s mugshot, he doesn’t look like a sprinter to me. I’m going to bet it takes him a bit of work to move at a brisk walk.

  15. @Jake,

    Ah, Ok, I just stumbled on this site when I was googling why Zimmerman had not been arrested yet, so I had not read any other blog posts, this is what the link brought me too. I found reading the arrest report interesting because I can clearly see how someone could read the details and assume Zimmerman was acting in self defense, I just couldn’t see how that would HAVE to be the only plausible determination.

    Personally, from everything I have read, my general public opinion (meaning, I am not a legal person and don’t know all the legal technicalities of the law) I would draw the most logical conclusion that Zimmerman screwed up and ended up killing Martin out of desperation for his own life.

    As the initial aggressor, I can’t draw the connection to calling what he did “self defense” because IMHO, that would be akin to me walking into a convenience store to rob it and then shooting the cashier when they hit me in the head with a baseball bat and trying to get off by saying: I was only defending myself against the person with the bat, I have the blood stain and wound on my head to prove it.

    I think that when you put yourself in dangerous situations and they escalate into violence or a violent crime, you kind of reap what you sew.

    1. As the initial aggressor, I can’t draw the connection to calling what he did “self defense” because IMHO, that would be akin to me walking into a convenience store to rob it and then shooting the cashier when they hit me in the head with a baseball bat….

      As you say, you are “not a legal person and don’t know all the legal technicalities of the law”; I don’t think any of us are employed in the area of law but given the responsibilities we incur by having lethal force trivially available, many of us have obtained a substantial understanding of the law in general and the states relevant to us.

      When you say “initial aggressor”, and more specifically hypothesize in your posting above:

      Martin feels threatened (rightfully so, in my opinion) and defends himself by assaulting the stranger who is confronting him in an aggressive manner.

      and analogize this to a robbery you leave out an important detail which is a general principle in US law: unless Zimmerman made a credible threat to Martin’s life or heath, i.e. committed the crime of assault, Martin had absolutely no legal justification for physically attacking Zimmerman. Your robbery analogy fails because that act by definition in the US includes “by force or threat of force” (“I have a gub”).

      If as you hypothesize Martin initiated the physical conflict not only does he lose any right to a claim of self-defense (like your robbery analogy illustrates), if—again, as a general principle of US law, but here I’m quoting the Florida law—he places Zimmerman in state where “He or she reasonably believes that [deadly] force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself….” then Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense is valid.

      Given that it seems to be undisputed that the conflict ended with Zimmerman on the ground, on his back, being assaulted by a 6 foot 160 pound youth, who, if Bolo242 is hearing the 911 calls correctly, was using an object in the assault, then it would seem Zimmerman was likely justified in his call that deadly force was an appropriate response. Note also that he was on the ground for some time before using his handgun. Maybe he couldn’t get to it, maybe this was restraint. Anyway you look at it, if this scenario is correct the hypothesis of many of us that “Zimmerman was acting in self defense” would seem to be likely to be correct.

      1. The standard for justified use of force (not deadly force) is having a reasonable belief that force is necessary to prevent someone else from using unlawful force on your person. It’s not that remarkably high a standard. But the fear has to be reasonable. It’s not, as the media keep incorrectly reporting, just a matter of if you’re afraid, anything goes. The fear has to be objectively reasonable.

        In other words, if you hit someone and said “I thought he was going to attack me, because he was black, and approached me,” that is not a reasonable fear. That’s an irrational fear. It has to be reasonable for the hypothetical reasonable person. Generally the determination of reasonableness is made by a jury.

        1. Good point, and one I ignored when citing just a portion of the law on deadly force. Here’s the relevant part:

          A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

          As you say, […] not that remarkably high a standard”, but it’s there and as you and others have noted it’s going to be very hard to establish with Martin dead and the only other eye or ear witness being Zimmerman. Who satisfied the local authorities with his account at the time.

  16. Harold, I hypothesize based on logic. Zimmerman stalked Martin. He left his van to have a face to face confrontation with him, even though he was instructed by Law Enforcement not to. It is safe to assume that Martin felt threatened for his life as he had no clue that the person confronting him was a paranoid Neighborhood Watch person, in fact, there is no proof that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun drawn at any time prior to Martin hitting him (which I believe Martin did beat up Zimmerman out of fear for his life). I am sure the “object” in question was a can of ice tea that he was holding in his hand. No weapons were found on him or near the crime scene. If Zimmerman had come up on me like he did Martin, he would have gotten his eyeballs scratched out of his head, his balls kicked in, and I would have probably been shot dead by him as well. Does that make me an attacker? The aggressor? Don’t stalk and hunt people down like prey if you don’t want your ass kicked. But if Zimmerman felt he was such a bad ass he could handle the confrontation without police then he should have fought the fair fight. You can’t go up on someone, put them in fear for their life, then when they whip your hind end shoot them and claim self defense. That makes no sense. And I am not saying this to sound anti gun, if you have a legitimate situation that requires ethical use of a firearm then by all means, use whatever you have available…I just feel like Zimmerman picked an unfair fight. He made the choice, the decision in that moment that he left his van to pursue Martin on foot. He needs to own his actions and take full responsibility for the consequences that followed.

    1. It is safe to assume that Martin felt threatened for his life as he had no clue that the person confronting him was a paranoid Neighborhood Watch person, in fact, there is no proof that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun drawn at any time prior to Martin hitting him

      The way the law views it is backwards from this, however. Prosecutors would have to prove he had his gun drawn. The burden on Zimmerman wouldn’t be to prove he did not draw it unless there was evidence or some witness statement that said he did. Absent that, prosecutors really don’t have anything to go on.

      It is a consequence of our legal system, which requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt to lock someone up in prison, that in a case where a person commits homicide, but claims it was in justifiable self-defense, if there weren’t witnesses, or conflicting evidence, it’s very hard for prosecutors to make a case, even if in their heart of hearts they believe the person guilty. This is the case whether there is a duty to retreat or not. A lot of people speaking of Stand Your Ground underestimate a) how many states were already this way and have been for decades (California, Texas, Arizona, New York, etc) and b) how difficult a case it generally makes to convince a jury of a duty to retreat. Any retreat requirement has always been conditional on being able to do so in complete safety. It’s a tough standard for prosecutors to meet, and impossible without evidence or witnesses to describe circumstances.

    2. Well put Kelly , that is exactly what I was thinking , the evidence presented shows zimmerman as the aggressor , he knows it is a teen , he has a 9mm , and apparently he ran after the kid , because he ended up in a back yard in a wrestling match , Trayvon had every right to STAND HIS GROUND , he was also NOT familiar with the area he was visiting , the girl friend phone call indicates he decided not to run from the guy , but he was still walking away from him , from what zimmerman is saying on the phone , he is upset with a person , for whom he is clueless about , zimmerman sounds confrontational , then there is a confrontation , then boom , I agree with people carrying guns to protect themselves also , zimmerman was carrying a gun and CHASING a teen …. the scenario of him getting laid out , then shooting the kid, is not far fetched at all …It is STAND YOUR GROUND , not , PURSUE THEN SHOOT

  17. People say that martin was on the phone with his girlfriend when Zimmerman started following him.
    The time i see her call started with him is 7:12.
    Zimmerman was on the phone with 911 a full minute before this.
    Martins Call lasted 4 mins.
    Zimmermans call lasted 4 mins.
    That leaves a 1 minute time window for them to meet and fight.
    If they confronted each other like the GF says.
    And the woman in 911-7 says they were at her back window talking.

    1. Earlier, you posted “In Zimmermans 911 call he jumps out of the truck at 2.09.” Would that be 7:13?

      1. Yes Diane that would be.
        So 3 minutes after he got out off the truck.
        Because he stayed on another 2 mins.
        And 1 minute after he hung up.
        Cops say they got there at 7:17.
        So this was a very quick fight.
        Hardly a minute or two.

        1. It’s whatever happened during that minute is what the case hinges on, but without witnesses, Zimmerman’s testimony is going to carry the day, provided there’s no evidence to disprove his account of things.

          And this would be the case in pretty much any state, not just Florida.

        2. Personally, I don’t think he headed back to his truck. At the point in the transcript where he said, “Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?” I think he was looking for Martin who had momentarily vanished from his vision. (That would account for why Zimmerman was afraid to give out his home address.)

          Like any street smart kid, I think Martin must have tried to put some space between the two of them and then hidden in the shadows, trying to figure out what was going on.

  18. The thing with this also is if Zimmerman did manhandle Martin that is aggrevated child abuse a Felony here in florida.
    If he got that.
    Hold your ground would not apply for him.
    Because Hold Your Ground doesn’t apply to you if you are in the act of a Felony.
    If Martin was using a weapon of some kind he picked up then that is a felony.
    Assault with a deadly weapon.
    Stand Your Ground does apply when you are a victim of a felony crime.
    Then Zimmerman is O.K.
    So they both may have commited felonys.

    1. Does Florida allow adults to legally follow juveniles? In a lot of states, that would be a criminal offense due to sexual predator laws.

  19. I dont think so.
    Unless youve got a restraining order.
    I dont think Martin went straight home because he didnt want Zimmerman knowing were he lived at.
    I think when zimmerman got off the phone he was right there in that immediate area of were they fought.
    zimmerman may have walked up on him behind them apartments and they had the standoff.
    Or he was behind the apartments when he got off the phone and was heading back to the truck.
    And met Trayvan on the way back.
    All I know is someone got the upper hand very early in the fight. That is obvious.

    1. I agree with you. I also think the gun must have come out much sooner than the last few seconds.

      Trayvon’s friends stated that they had never seen him in a fight and that he wasn’t a fighter. The only thing I can think of that would make him fight as hard as he did would be a life or death situation — which this fight would have been if a gun had been involved.

      The pushing and shoving that the girlfriend heard on the phone must have rapidly escalated to the gun being out….

  20. Another thing about the GF is she was on the phone when Trayvan turned around and walked back toward Zimmerman in the beginning.
    Its really close to the time when his call with her would have started.
    He may have been going to confront Zimmerman then.
    But seen a wide figure inside and changed his mind.
    Or she may have talked him out of it.
    Just know that little over a minute he turns and runs.
    She should have more to say on that.
    She did say that Trayvan wasnt going to run he was just going to walk fast.
    That kinda means you dont wanna look scared and kinda means your holding you ground.
    Meaning enough is enough and if im caught up with then.
    Im ready.
    Its a male pride thing.

    1. I think we also need to ask ourselves, what was Zimmerman going to do if he caught up with Martin? Try to detain him? How? On the ground? Hold him at gunpoint? Make him stand in a corner? What was the plan here?

      It still makes no sense to me why Martin would jump him without further action on Zimmerman’s part.

      1. I personally don’t claim to have any understanding of the criminal mind, and according to Zimmerman’s full account, more of which has been reported (see below), it was Martin who was the aggressor in every way that counts.

        Yes, is makes no sense to jump someone in a state that’s been (in)famously shall issue since 1987, but people and especially criminals do a lot of things that don’t make much if any sense to people like us who I assume are in the category of non-criminals.

  21. You know, I just remembered last summer, I was at my sister’s condo and a male grounds keeper was following me in his truck. He was slowing down and checking me out and then he would circle around and do it again. I had my 6 year old daughter with me and we were walking from the pool to my sisters condo and the walk (which is fairly short) felt like forever. Finally, the protective mother in me got super pissed that this guy felt so brazen that he could do that to me and instead of retreating and walking fast (my initial response) after I got my daughter to my sister safely I got in my car and drove back to the condo office and got out and confronted the worker. I told him that if he EVER followed us again or looked at us the wrong way I was going to call two people, my 6’4″ 240 lb husband and then 911 in that order. All this to say that I can clearly see how having someone follow you and make you feel threatened until you snap and decide that you are not going to lay down and die. I think Martins initial reaction was to try to get out of the uncomfortable situation and then finally when he couldn’t get the guy to stop following him he decided to just walk towards him and see what the heck he wanted. Been there and done that. Not a crime. No reason to be shot either.

  22. @Bolo, it would be nice if they could throw aggravated child abuse at Zimmerman but I think FL is incapable of using that charge, after all, they wouldn’t even use it in the Caycee Anthony trial and IMHO, that was 100% completely warranted there.

  23. No its not a crime.
    interested in this case and trying to figure for myself what was going on and sequence of events with what little we were given.
    When the trial starts I want to be as accurate as I can with the trial if there is one.
    Of course I could watch the trial and hear things that were completely different from what my imagination thinks.
    But it keeps me outta trouble.
    And it really helps me to see when someone is just spreading something completely untrue also.
    And I see where both sides did a little right and wrong.
    It was a chaos of events.

  24. It really was chaos. Honestly, I know I sound like I am completely against Zimmerman, but it not personal against him. I read his bio, he sounds like he was a good kid too. Sadly, I think he got a little power trip off being the captain of the Neighborhood Watch and took his “duty” too far. I feel bad that he lacked proper judgement but at the end of the day he stalked and shot an unarmed teenager and I think he needs to be held accountable for that. We can’t have people in society condoning this event or laws twisted around to protect these acts of violence, or no one will ever be safe walking in neighborhoods again.

  25. To PlainFacts et. al., here is what the press is now reporting that the police are saying:

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

    In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

    HT the Instapundit.

    That’s consistent with his call to the police (which does NOT have him refusing the suggestion that they didn’t need him to follow Martin), the earlier reports of his being attacked on the way back to his truck, and pretty much everything else that seems to be reliable.

    This account, which follows one of the scenarios I thought to be plausible and matches the time-line Bolo242 has constructed, which we assume Zimmerman told consistently (most people can’t lie well), puts a rather different light on this incident, doesn’t it?

    Yes, if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle we assume Martin wouldn’t have attacked him, but….

    1. Here’s something additional from a police source to ABC News (ignore the headline, it doesn’t match the text):

      George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

      Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

      13 year old eyewitness Austin Brown is also named, grrr.

      This is in accord with Massad Ayoob’s point that there could have been struggle for control of the gun:

      The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.

    2. And an update from the Orlando Sentinel.

      The authorities are not pleased by the leaking and are starting an internal investigation. They have not, however, said the info is inaccurate.

      From the story, after Zimmerman rang off from the dispatcher:

      There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they’re not sure what happened.

      Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

      Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

      Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

      Zimmerman began yelling for help.

      [ The dispute based on recordings as to who was crying for help. ]

      One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

      Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

  26. Harold, that makes a stronger case for Martin, IMHO. I see Martin as an innocent person who felt stalked and threatened. I am sure his adrenaline was up and when he hit Zimmerman he was probably (in his mind) fighting for his life. Zimmerman instigated the violence upon himself, Martin did not.

    1. Well, based on what you’ve told us about yourself and your approach to this sort of thing I believe that’s what you feel and think is appropriate, but what I note is that after Martin “felt stalked and threatened”, ran and removed himself from Zimmerman’s sight, Zimmerman turned his back to Martin and walked away to his truck, which Martin very possibly could have realized was his destination.

      That’s the cue for Martin to come out of hiding, confront and initiate a “talk” with Zimmerman, and then brutally assault him?

      We’re talking about the “fight or flight” response here, where Martin chose the former initially. Why would he shift to “fight” as the threat was going away?

      1. I am confused..where did you read that he ran, then turned and confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman was retreating? The conclusion I get from everything I read is that Zimmerman was following him in a vehicle while he was walking. While he was being followed he walked quickly to try to get away. He got out of sight (or so he thought) and then Zimmerman appeared again. At which time his girlfriend encouraged him to run and he refused to run, but kept walking quickly. Zimmerman then got out of his vehicle and approached him, at which point he had enough, turned around and confronted Zimmerman and a physical altercation broke out, that ended with a gunshot and Martin’s death. I didn’t read that he was hiding successfully somewhere and he came out of hiding. Do you have a link to that article? I must be missing something.

        1. And the press is getting nutty, did you guys read today that they interviewed a 13 year old witness, the press actually released his name (Austin Brown). I would be livid if that was my child….can they really bumble this case up anymore then they are?

        2. where did you read that he ran, then turned and confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman was retreating

          I’m combining what the Orlando Sentinel is reporting in the link above with the Mother Jones supplied transcript of his phone call with the police; the relevant parts from the latter:

          Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …

          Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.


          Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…

          Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.

          Dispatcher: OK…

          Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me.


          Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.

          Dispatcher: OK.

          Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband.


          Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.


          Zimmerman: [ While giving the police directions to where he is. ] Shit he’s running.

          Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

          Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

          Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?

          Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]

          Dispatcher: Are you following him?

          Zimmerman: Yeah

          Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.

          Zimmerman: Ok

          Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?

          Zimmerman: George…He ran.

          [ The dispatcher is getting Zimmerman’s identifying info. ]

          Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?

          Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.

          The last comment quoted above says to me that Zimmerman has lost sight of Martin after the latter ran.

          The rest is his arranging to meet the police officer on the way and then ringing off, and is consistent with his account that he started going back to his truck around this time.

          1. You left off the portion of the transcript where Zimmerman told the dispatcher to have the police call him because he didn’t know where he was going to be. That part is consistent with NOT going directly back to the truck.

            1. It’s not inconsistent, it’s silent about where he was going to go, and perhaps indicates he didn’t want to commit himself to being in a particular location, particularly one he said out loud. Given that he no longer knew where Martin was and was concerned Martin could overhear him, it fits together.

  27. Are you following him?

    Zimmerman: Yeah

    Don’t do that.

    So Zimmerman started following after him after he ran? He thought he was being chased and then realized at some point he wasn’t.

    When did Zimmerman catch up with him again? I can’t find any documentation that says Martin came back on Zimmerman as he was walking to his truck.

    Up until the actual fight it is all a one sided account and the account is changing yet again, now that Zimmerman lawyered up.

    I just read the entire 911 transcript and still fail to find any way that Martin confronted Zimmerman while Zimmerman was walking away from him.

    The police report says that the officer that arrived at the scene found Martin face down with both hands underneath him, which indicates that Zimmerman shot him in the back most likely. I was hoping to see an autopsy report for definitive answers, but how can you rationalize shooting someone in the back as self defense.

    I don’t know, it just doesn’t add up.

    1. If Martin veered from the direct way home to lose the creepy guy following him, and Zimmerman headed down the street trying to see where he went, it seems entirely possible they passes each other. Have you seen the neighborhood? It’s basically two streets, each with a row of condos and a cement walkway in between (which is where it all ended)

      From the GF’s story we know Martin thought he had lost him and was heading on to home. Zimmerman was walking for what? Two minutes? It’s not a very big area, he may well have gone PAST martins house before he turned back.

      It’s speculation, but it would match all the evidence I have seen.

    2. The police report says that the officer that arrived at the scene found Martin face down with both hands underneath him, which indicates that Zimmerman shot him in the back most likely.

      It indicates nothing of the sort. As both Sebastian and I noted earlier, Martin’s final position could have resulted from the way Zimmerman pushed him off afterward, or Martin may not have died immediately and turned himself over, or he could have backed off after the shot and then fallen face down. The Hollywood-typical scenario where someone just slumps over dead as soon as they’re shot is actually extrememly rare.

      At this point, any claims that Martin was shot in the back, or how he ended up facedown, are nothing more than pure speculation with no known supporting evidence.

  28. Actually I read 2 articles about the boy.
    I read the boys interveiw sunday. Then yesterday I read where they talked to the mom and other people in the neighborhood and also a history of the neighborhoods developement.
    He’s the boy in 911-8.

  29. Im pretty sure within .30 to .45 seconds after Zimmerman got off the phone. They were at least talking.
    He never made it back to that truck.
    Because the GF was on the phone atleast a minute after that with Martin.
    And she said they exchanged 2 quick sentences apiece.
    Then it was on.
    But she is just aware that she could hear zimmerman on the phone.
    That doesnt mean he ran up on Martin.
    Martin could have come back on zimmerman when he seen he was not on the phone anymore.
    Im sure he heard zimmerman on the phone giving directions to someone.
    This fight started way too soon after the call was done.

  30. If you wanna See martin in his senior football uniform goto


    Martin is on the left side of page.
    Zimmerman is on right side of page.

  31. Here is the way this is going to end. Zimmerman is not going to be convicted. No one will be able to prove it wasn’t self defense because the evidence is all contaminated. However, he will end up dead for the same reason he killed Treyvon: someone will see him as a threat. He told everyone in the world he exited his vehicle and followed an unarmed kid who was where he was lawfully allowed to be and shot the kid. The rest of his story is just irrelevant noise now. The HOA is going to be sued because Zimmerman was their agent that they had a duty to control. Clearly they didn’t control him because he got out of the car with a semi automatic weapon. If the HOA doesn’t have enough liability insurance to cover the millions of dollars in damages from the negligence suit, the home owner’s are going to get a letter telling them HOA dues are going up.

  32. wow
    Miami Herald publish an article about Martins school history.
    He was suspended twice.
    Found on camera hiding and acting suspicious
    Then caught defacing school property with graffiti.
    Wrote W.T.F. on a locker.
    When they searched his bag for the marker They found stolen jewelry and burglery tools.
    Also disiplined for truency and lateness.
    Also found in his bag another time the empty marijuana baggy and pipe.
    Which is what he was currently suspended for.

    Also released by Orlando Sentinel
    Zimmermans version of what happened.
    He got off the phone with dispatch and turned to go back to the truck.
    When martin came from behind him from the left and confronted him.
    Martin asked him “Do you have a problem?”
    Zimmerman said “No.”
    And reached to get his phone.
    Martin said “You got one now!”
    Or something like that.
    And punched Zimmerman in the nose.
    Zimmerman fell down and Martin jumped on him and epeatly punched him and repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk.
    Zimmerman cryed for help and noone came.

  33. I feel for the parents who lost a child. I understand why they want their son to be remembered as the sweet prepubescent he once was. However in my opinion, the apparent dishonesty in their efforts to create a false image of him does his memory a disservice. Because of their willingness to bed the truth, I immediately wonder what else are they trying to hide about their son.

    I wish they wouldn’t have outright lied about their son’s school suspension record, since it’s something they were aware so many other people also knew was a lie. Because lying about something when they know there’s ample proof they’re lying, it makes me question that everything they say about him is a bold lie to make him look innocent.

    Things I’ve read but don’t know if they’re true:

    When the child never came home from the candy store at all, in a neighborhood they knew he was not familiar with, his father did nothing. His son appeared to be due home around 7:30 PM. But it wasn’t until the next day that his father decided to inquire with missing persons, and then call the police. To me, this is not a child whose parents kept an eye out for him. I end up thinking: the father wasn’t concerned, or, he didn’t want to call police on his out-all-night son for a reason. I’m also thinking, perhaps his dad expected one of his son’s “candy” runs to last all night long.

    His parents intentionally supplied years-old photos of their son to the press. Did they do this to make him appear less physically threatening than he appeared at the time of the tragedy? They fostered the “child in the hoodie” image with outdated photos. I can’t confirm this, but I read that someone had attempted to remove more recent online images, that show him as he looked that night: the 6’3″ tatooed teenager with gold teeth.

    I read that Trayvon’s mother filed applications to trademark her son’s name.

    His father outright lied to the press about his son’s cause of suspension. He said “it wasn’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area”. When the cause of the suspension was revealed to be for having marijuana material on school property, his parents called the truth “irrelevent” and “needlessly hurtful.” It doesn’t seem irrelevent to me. Using drugs can cause a person to act suspiciously, act like there was something wrong with them, feel paranoid, and, most relevently, cause a person to use poor judgment uncharacteristic of what you might expect from him when he was sober.

    Trayvon’s personal twitter account, where he calls himself NO_LIMIT_NIGGA, was taken offline for at least a week. After the Daily Caller website managed to ressurrect his tweets anyway, his twitter page came back right away. This time, without all of the mutiple tweets that reference racism (“Your Orangutan Looking Asz Nigga”), drugs (weed, getting high), violence, b###hes and weapons (“2 glock 40’s…. b###h u got 80 problems”).


    Again, the above is what I read and can’t confirm any of it as true. However, as I read more recent speculation that Trayvon was a drug dealer and a gangbanger, thanks to the actions of his father, now I do think that it’s possible. His dad made it seem they didn’t notice or care if or expect the guy to come home at night. I’m less likely to hear such accusations and think “smear campaign” on someone else’s part, now that his father’s shown he is on his own campaign of creating outright lies about his son.

    Disclaimer: The above is just my opinion based on what I read in the press. I do not know all the facts. I have no insider information.

    1. Thanks for the stuff you dug up, and in reference to the drug connection the family has confirmed, Zimmerman’s first characterization of Martin to the police was “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something.” The family’s claim this can’t have anything to do with the shooting is less than persuasive, at least prior to the release of Martin’s toxicology report.

      One thing I don’t know is where Martin’s father was at this time; Martin was visiting his father’s girlfriend’s residence many miles north from his home in Miami.

  34. Ive read that when they came home.
    They thought he was with a cousin.
    But when he wasnt back in the morning.
    they searched.

    Ive seen recent pics of Martin.
    He was not necessary big looking.
    But he didnt look weak.
    About average health guy.
    They printed
    Age wise he was a child.
    But body wise he was an adult.

    I read about the trademaking.
    “I am Trayvan” and some other slogan.

    I think they got the girlfriend to lie.
    She says Zimmerman pushed Martin and then they fought.
    And her statement of their conversation is different completely.
    There is no indication that zimmerman was violent towards Martin.
    And he has a great deal of damage from a fight that was hardly a minute or minute half long.
    Also I recognize his voice in 911-3 in one instance or two yelling “help me”.
    I can hear the yell of “Oooohhh S*it” as the reciever sees and tensess for a great blow.
    I can hear the great blow as it smacks and then the knock down of furniture or objects. I also hear the tone of the female callers voice as the smack and crash startle her as she says “Send somebody quick. Dave crap.”
    I can also hear Martin squeal like a wounded Gazelle brought down by lions when he is shot.
    The only actual sound from him during the whole incident.
    Then the blood curdling scream of a woman neighbor like in a horror movie.
    And the scraping of furniture moving as the people in the room of the call are startled by the shot.

  35. Here’s the link the website with “The photos the media doesn’t want you to see.”

    It includes a screenshot of a myspace page prominently featuring AK47’s and glocks. The page belongs to “miramars_numba9.” (Martin played football for Miramar school and wore the number 9).


    I realize this does not help with trying to put the facts together of what happened that night. I just felt so lied to, after learning the picture of someone about 13 years old was being used to represent someone nearly 18, that I wanted to share with others what I had learned.

    The iconic image created by this distortion, of a man gunning down the little boy pictured, doesn’t reflect that at 6’3″, Martin had a good six inches over the 5’9″ Zimmerman.

  36. My comment about Martin sounding like a Gazelle was not as an insult.
    It is the only similar thing I know of that sounded like it.
    A gazille in a geographic special as it is brought down and screaming.
    But this was only one short scream.
    Like air escaping.

  37. Martin’s mother labeled the release of her son’s school suspension records as “slander.” I understand she doesn’t like unflattering information about him being known by the public she courts. Yet, the parents continue do their son’s memory a disservice by declaring it a crime to reveal what appears to be a truthful school account.

    One of the family’s attorneys categorized school records as “rumor”. “This is someone in a school writing a report, rumor as far as I’m concerned,” said attorney Natalie Jackson.

    However, I do believe it is a crime to solicit a what appears to be a “hit”. I don’t know if published reports of The New Black Panthers’ $10,000 dead or alive bounty for Zimmerman are true. I may have missed them, but I personally have not seen any reports of Martin’s parents speaking against the published hit solicited for Zimmerman.

    The media continues to run the “undated” old photo of Trayvon at age 12 or 13. It wouldn’t appear as blatantly inflammatory, if they would also run an old photo of George when he was about the same age next to it.

    From today’s NY Daily News:

    Officials told ABC News that Trayvon, who had no criminal record, received a 10-day suspension from Krop High School in Miami for having an empty marijuana baggie. Authorities also told the Miami Herald that he was suspended in October, when he wrote “WTF” on a locker, and his knapsack was found to contain items of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver deemed a possible “burglary tool.”

    “We take pride in our kids and it tears me apart to sit here and listen to the slander they are giving my son,” Martin said.

    “Even in death, they are still disrespecting my son.”

    1. I don’t know if published reports of The New Black Panthers’ $10,000 dead or alive bounty for Zimmerman are true.

      Reports I’ve seen said “alive and unharmed”, but TV footage of NBPP leaders would seem to support the bounty.

      I’m still waiting for the police to arrest the NBPP leadership for felony soliciting of kidnapping.

  38. Martin family lawyer Benjamin Crump stated, “The only thing that matters on February 26 is George Zimmerman disobeyed the police and got out of his car and pursued and stalked Trayvon Martin to cause this fatal encounter.”

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the first part of this statement is another outright lie. There’s nothing on the 911 tape that shows Zimmerman disobeyed the police at all. Zimmerman wasn’t ordered, instructed, told, advised, or even suggested, that he DO or stop DOING anything. He was never told to stay in his vehicle. He was not advised to stop following Martin. Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher that the police themselves didn‘t NEED him to follow him. “We don’t need you to do that.”

    The only instruction I heard the dispatcher give Zimmerman, came earlier in the call and was indeed obeyed by Zimmerman. The dispatcher told him, “Let me know if he does anything, OK, just let me know if he does anything else”.

    Is it a matter of semantics?

    Here’s a link where Anderson Cooper’s team isolates and analyzes a minute portion of the 911 tape in a studio. This was to determine whether or not Zimmerman muttered under his breath “F#####n punks” or “F####n coons.” (The 911 tape analysis starts playing at about 1:30 in.)


    As a woman of color who’s about the same age as Zimmerman, and who has lived in the deep South, I sadly have heard many racial slurs used against me and others. However, I personally don’t recall hearing that dated word used anywhere outside of a very old Mel Brooks film (made before either of us were born). At the risk of relying on ageist sterotypes, to me, that’s an old person word. I think the word “punks” is used far more often to describe suspected young criminals, especially by someone under 30.

    What’s also interesting is that Zimmerman does not mention Martin’s race until he is asked by the dispatcher. He sounds unsure when he answers “He looks black” and he gives more detail about what he can see, such as clothing. Only later, after he sees Martin better because Martin’s looking at him, he confirms the description of race, age and clothing as “He’s a black male, he’s got a button on his shirt, late teens.”

    At this point, I’m officially insulted that I’m expected to be moved to action after such outright lies and false claims are being purported by the boy’s family and their lawyer. It’s sad that their own lack of integrity and honesty now overrides whatever actually happened to that child that night. When I first heard about this story I felt so much pain and hurt for what happened to their son, for what could happen to my own son. As soon as I saw the reports of Zimmerman as “White”, and noticed how it didn’t match with the photograph of what is obviously a Hispanic man, I had to dig deeper. Your website has the most respectful fact-seeking dialogue on these events I could find.

    Personally, I’ve come to the conclusion this wasn’t a white on black crime. It’s just another stupid on stupid tragedy.

  39. On the Sanford city website or wikipedia.
    You can obtain all the calls and different documents.
    There is a Police Cheifs Q&A.
    That says a dispatch order is not a Police order.
    Therefore Zimmerman had done nothing wrong.

    I realized last night listening to the Zimmerman call.
    That he may have said “F**king Boots”.
    With a kinda P sound at the beginning because he was running.
    That would make dispatch ask if he was following him.
    Also would mean he was not even talking about Martin at all.
    I havent found what zimmerman was wearing.
    Anyone know for a fact???

  40. This video shows Zimmerman exiting the police cruiser and going into the police station after Martin was shot. He does not have any grass stains on his back, nor do I see any blood or bruising or abrasions anywhere on his head, which happens to be bald and makes it very easy to notice any of those things.

    He doesn’t look like a guy who was getting beaten down to me.


    People can lie, but a picture (especially a video) is worth 1000 words.

    1. Then I guess it’s a good thing the police report of Officer Timothy Smith from the scene says:

      While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman [removing his gun and holster from his waist band], I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.

      [ Various including the arrival of “SFD Rescue 38”, which I take to be the Sanford Fire Department. ]

      Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD.

    2. And such a high quality video it is, too. With resolution so poor that the 3″ lettering on the back of the police car is distorted, and the car’s number on the bumper (which appears to also be in 3″ lettering) is difficult to read. Plus, ABC managed to keep their “ABC News Exclusive” logo over his head almost the whole time. Oh, and let’s not forget that this is after he was seen and probably cleaned up by the medics at the scene.

      The video tells us nothing about any injuries he might have had.

      1. Oh, and let’s not forget that this is after he was seen and probably cleaned up by the medics at the scene.

        That was the apparently too subtle point I was trying to make when I mentioned the fire department medics had attended to him on the scene.

        Given the blood borne diseases we don’t yet have available vaccines for (e.g. HIV and hepatitis C) I would hope it’s SOP for a medic with gloves to remove the blood from anyone before others handle him some more.

        1. Well, not always. But with head lacerations, especially if they’re small, we often have to clean the blood up just to get a good look at them. Nosebleeds we’ll often clean up to make it easier to make sure they’ve stopped, and sometimes for patient comfort, especially if they’re restrained like Zimmerman was and can’t do it for themselves.

          1. Does 2-3 or perhaps a bit more inches count as “small”? Here’s a freeze frame of the infamous video where a possible laceration looks to be 2-3? inches long when I compare it to the back of my head.

            It’s been a very long while since I had a head laceration (’70s as I recall and it didn’t require any serious treatment including stitches); I’d assume depth also matters. And I wonder exactly what caused it and therefore how deep, wide, etc.

            1. I wouldn’t call it small, but it’s still possible that it could have been obscured enough that it would need some cleaning to tell how deep it was. It’s a case where I would want to see the EMS report and possibly interview the medic before drawing any conclusions.

              And that image just reinforces my point about the quality of the video. I wouldn’t expect to see anything much smaller than that, and if I did I’m not sure I’d be able to conclude that it’s an injury.

    3. Oh, and FYI, it’s extremely unlikely that there would be any visible bruising that soon after the incident, and even if there had been that crappy video wouldn’t have picked it up anyway.

  41. Yes, I am aware of what the police report says, the video says something different all together. I see no contusions/abrasions/scrapes anywhere on his head. Anyone can SAY they are there, but if they physically ARE NOT THERE, it doesn’t make it true.

    1. Just because you can’t see it on the video, doesn’t mean its not there.

  42. Would this story have been reported differently if George Zimmerman had used his mother’s maiden name and if his father had let her call him Jose?

  43. Yes, you are right Jake, lets not believe anything we see and everything we hear when the visible evidence doesn’t match the story that we want to be true. Lets call all the evidence we don’t want to believe low resolution and tampered with. I cannot wait to see what the Grand Jury comes back with …. the more this story unfolds, the worse it gets for Zimmerman and his fan club is going to be heartbroken when the TRUTH finally comes out.

    1. Ahem. (Thanks to Harold, above.)

      So now it seems there is something there. But, like I said, the video is low enough in quality that you can’t really tell for sure what it is.

      My original claim stands: The video is inconclusive on the matter of Zimmerman’s injuries. However, it does appear at this point to be suggestive that the claim that he was injured is correct.

  44. Crappy quality loaded with compression artifacts.

    Also nice of ABC on an international exclusive to obscure 90% of the footage of Zimmerman with their Logo.

    Never gotten in a serious fight, but I’d taken falls and bumps and banged myself up a bunch of time. Once the blood gets cleaned up, you don’t look too bad.

    The next morning the scrapes scab over, the bruises swell up and turn black. He could look like hell the next morning, or not. If his lawyer is worth his pay he took lots of pictures of Zimmerman’s face and body to show the extent of the injuries.

    Oh and also I read that Zimmerman requested to be taken to a hospital, and the police refused and took him to the station.

  45. ABC news has aired a forensically enhanced version of the police staiton surveillance video. The new video shows wounds and or welts on the back of Zimmerman’s head.


    NBC news, meanwhile, is conducting an internal investigation after airing an intentionally misleadingly edited version of Zimmerman’s 911 call. The Today Show aired the 911 call to make it sound as if Zimmerman stated to dispatch, “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, he looks black.”

    What Zimmerman actually said, was “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” Zimmerman was then asked by the dispatched, “OK, and this guy, is he black, white or Hispanic?” Zimmerman’s reply to the question was, “He looks black.”

  46. Thank you Don Cheadle!

    Don Cheadle tweeted:

    Dear NBC News, Huh??? It was ‘an error made in the production process that we deeply regret.’ Really? ‘Error?’ Anybody out there know anything about editing? Unless the AVID (technology) malfunctioned, somebody was faking the funk. Why?, is the question. What was furthered beyond NBC news ratings?
    Dangerous subject matter to be f**king with. Irresponsible, incendiary and completely counter to the furtherance of justice for either side. Edited, produced, and green lit to air. The greatest responsibility lies with those listed but in the inverse order. Demote somebody.
    An obvious and irresponsible ratings grab, willfully fanning the flames or too ignorant to stay in their job. I pray this kind of bulls**t doesn’t effect (sic) the investigation or sway the facts in any way. There needs to be a proper outcome based on fact.
    Truth doesn’t need ‘help.’ If Zimmerman is proven guilty of a crime he should be charged accordingly and prosecuted to the full extent.

    Amen, Mr. Cheadle.

  47. Hey guys.
    If anyone still comes by.
    I just wanted to let you know it looks like they are not going to charge Zimmerman.
    All hell is going to break loss in Sanford.
    When she announces this.
    Ive been hanging at
    Support for George Zimmerman facebook page.
    anyone wanna come cuss us out come on.
    We get hit all day everyday with ignorance and hate.
    Media has messed up some minds big time.
    See yall around..

  48. I just want to thank the sharp-eyed individual who caught that detail in the original report.

    By now we all know that Zimmerman has been arrested and he has been charged with 2nd murder.

    And because the police were not allowed by the DA to charge him that night, he wove himself a pretty tangled web and now he’s got a worse charge facing him.

    I see that this is a 2nd Amendmenters page, but it seems pretty fair an balanced, and I respect the 2nd Amendment, but I love and respect ALL the Amendments, so in any case, I’m just going to say I’m glad Zimmerman was charged, I believe it is the right charge, I want to see Justice for everyone, but especially for an unarmed teenaged kid, who was committing no offense, just walking home from the store and is now gone.

    Thanks again,

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