I was very interested to read Breda’s coverage of her Appleseed experience here, here and here. Bitter and I have collectively introduced quite a number of people into the shooting world, so I think have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn’t. The good thing about Appleseed is that they are trying to recruit people into shooting, and teaching marksmanship. Both are very worthwhile endeavors. The bad part about Appleseed is they are selling shooting in a way that is more than likely going to scare of newbie shooters:
We were told to go downrange, put up our target and load up our magazines. The first target of an Appleseed shoot is highly symbolic – the initial 13 rounds serve as a reminder of the original American colonies and the red (as in redcoat) silhouettes allude to how riflemen won our freedom during the Revolutionary War.
Are they learning to shoot, or being indoctrinated into a cult? I mean, yeah, I understand what they are trying to do here, which is connect the history of this country to the rifleman. That’s understandable. But thirteen shots at the lobsterbacks? Eh… that’s a hard sell for someone just starting out. I generally frown on the use of silhouette targets for newbie shooters. Newbie shooters should be learning two things — first is that shooting is a lot of fun, and second is the fundamentals of competently and safely shooting a firearm. We can save the history lessons for later.
With a few kind words, I had been given a glimmer of hope – but an Appleseed is like that. The instructors are encouraging, knowledgeable and remarkably patient. Their love for rifleshooting translates into hours of consistent positivity and tireless assistance, even for someone as inexperienced as me.
It seems like the folks involved in this Appleseed event were good instructors, and it sounds like it was good instruction. But why follow with this:
The instructors at an Appleseed attempt to teach you to shoot accurately enough to score “expert” on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you’re considered a “Cook,” unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom.
Way to encourage new shooters guy! Keep practicing, or you’re just a lowly cook? If you teach people that shooting is a lot of fun, they will keep practicing, and they will get better. You’re only job is to teach the fundamentals, correct mistakes, and send the shooter off with a feeling that if they practice those, they’ll have a lot of fun, and will turn themselves into better shooters. Appleseed is a great idea, but I’m not sure I like the packaging. I would concentrate more on having a good time, and encouraging new shooters. We can connect them to the history of our shooting culture once we actually get them into it.
I take it you have not read much of Fred…
Nope.
Actually, I don’t even know who Fred is :)
I went over and re-read Breda’s posts. This quote says it all:
“The day after, when my mother saw how tired and beat up I was, she asked if it was worth it.
“Yeah,”I said. “It really was.” I had an interesting new experience, learned so many things, met a lot of nice people and perhaps best of all, my husband now thinks that I’m a “tough chick.””
Appleseed is not an “introduction to shooting” for new shooters, it is an event with the purpose of improving the skills of shooters.
Here is a place to start with reading Fred.
It should only be 12 shots; Rhode Island shouldn’t count.
Well, the fact is (and point was) that some, especially those tentative about arms, are a little freaked out about silhouette targets. For some reason, their first thought is that they are “used to practice shooting people.” Well, yes, but not in the way they think or understand.
There is a range not too far from Chicago. It’s in Wisconsin. First time I went up there I had a bunch of IDPA type silhouette targets. I started putting them up when an RO asked if I might please cut the heads off, or fold them over. He said it was range policy … “we don’t want folks to think we are shooting at people up here.” I said “sure, no problem … but if folks really thought you were shooting at people, I suspect the range would be shut down by now. Besides … how do they think am I going to practice my head shots?!” We both had a bit of a laugh at that.
But the point is … people are fragile, and uninformed. I think getting them informed (which is what Sebastian is doing) might help cure the fragile part, too.
I’m not suggesting that ranges adopt a no silhouette policy, I just don’t start newbs out with them. Silhouette targets can be explained easily. I think the whole tradition of the rifleman is a little much for a person new into shooting to handle, personally. Most people seem to get into this because they want to learn how to protect themselves, or are just curious.
I think the Appleseed folks are pushing the newbs a bit harder than I would push a newbie shooter. I noticed they had Breda using a sling, also not something I’d work on a newbie shooter with. I’d concentrate more on teaching fundamentals, and having some fun.
When I say a little too much to handle, I mean to say it’s likely to make people think shooting is not fun. Breda isn’t exactly a total noob, so I think she got something out of it. I can tell you now if my first shooting experience had been that kind of ordeal, along with a history lesson, I would have put the rifle down and never picked one up again.
JR:
Thanks for the link. My impression was that it was geared more to bringing people into shooting than it was making existing rifle shooters better shots.
Appleseed has a specific set of objectives and a specific program intended to achieve it. From what I’ve read and heard, they always teach hasty sling and iron sights, for specific reasons. From Breda’s description, it sounds like the actual instruction is more gentle than the “cook/rifleman” appellation sounds.
Me? I’d be lucky if they let me cook. ;-) One of these days I’ll get a rifle with a sling (I’m kind of reluctant somehow to bubba my Rem 510 for a sling, though it ain’t like they’re worth anything anyway).
:-) :-) :-) %
I’ve been to a couple Appleseeds now, earned my Rifleman patch at my first one, and I’ll be assistant-instructing at one in September.
I went to the first one with no real idea of what to expect, a bit intimidated by what I perceived as a lot of Kool-Aid on the forums, but willing to give it a shot.
I walked away with a Rifleman patch, a mild sunburn, a fiancee who wants her patch in the worst way, and fifteen new friends who have a common interest.
Do we push new shooters hard? Yep. There is a tremendous amount of information thrown at shooters in a short amount of time. Do we expect a lot of the shooters? Most definitely. But the instructors also expect a tremendous amount from themselves… we all donate our time, energy, and some money, with pleasure. At the last Appleseed I attended we had three or four new shooters from New York City. These folks had never shot a gun, never held a gun, and were using rifles borrowed from other shooters and instructors (arranged in advance). All of them were shooting over 150 by the end of their first day.
This history ends up being a very important part of the Appleseed experience, IMHO. The instructors enjoy it, generally tell it well, and relate it to modern times as well as can be expected.
As to using the sling – proper sling use is part of accurate rifle shooting. Which fundamentals would you focus on? The six steps? Covered in detail. Natural point of aim? Covered and ingrained repeatedly.
“Keep practicing, or you’re just a lowly cook?”
Bingo. The human animal thrives with goal-based (objective-oriented) training. Give someone a level they need to reach, and they’ll do everything they can to make that goal.
If you have the opportunity, I’d highly recommend you attend an Appleseed… it’s a hell of a lot of fun.
I agree with iron sights on new shooters, but not sling. But for people who already know fundamentals, sling is a good thing to teach. Some would probably argue that the sling is a fundamental :) But I think people should be able to shoot well without one first.
I went to the first one with no real idea of what to expect, a bit intimidated by what I perceived as a lot of Kool-Aid on the forums, but willing to give it a shot.
That’s my main complaint. Even if it’s not true, it has a bit of a kool-aid drinking air about it.
I’ve been following along through Breda’s comments, and just want to add a clarification – none of the shooters at the Appleseed shoot would qualify as noobs, and all were very familiar with safety and proper gun handling, so it wasn’t like they were starting from scratch. In fact, I would guess they were all at the stage where the competitive drive to rise to “rifleman from cook” offered a greater incentive than the aspect of simply having fun banging away.
Additionally, the “silhouettes” were the most abstract versions I’ve ever seen – and looked more like the outline of an old fashioned mantle clock than a human shaped target.
Personally, I thought the “13 shots at the Redcoat” was kind of clever and a good way to tie the activities into the Revolutionary War theme.
Also, while we were there, no one tried to recruit us into a “cold dead hands” militia group, or even try to sell anything – 90% of the time was taken up with shooting instruction and drills – there was a lot to cover, and little time was wasted.
If you think it would be discouraging to come away from a hard day shooting knowing that you have only achieved the rank of cook, ask yourself how it would feel to come back hot, tired, and sore only to be told you were at a cult meeting, or to read this – http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=726 – or this – http://www.papadeltabravo.com/blog/?p=917 – now that would be discouraging.
I understand you have some differences of opinion with the Appleseed folk, but I also note you argue very strongly on the idea of the firearms community not sounding nutty, and frightening the undecided away, I agree wholeheartedly, but then the accusation of cult activity in what was, ultimately, a challenging and fun event would seem to undermine your own argument. Motes and beams and all that.
Thanks for the time
Mike
It’s reasonable criticism of my point of view Mike. To be sure, I’m not saying they are a cult, I’m just saying I get that vibe from how they promote themselves.
I’m sorry to say, but I think PDB’s criticism of Appleseed is compelling.
Setting the Kool-Aid issues aside, I think there’s very valid criticisms here on instruction. Mike, you say no one there was a noob. But from what I’ve been reading, they hold themselves out to be trainers for new shooters. Even people in some threads who enjoy going have acknowledged that their instruction is poor. That’s a bad combination. They need to clarify their purpose, focus their target audience, or improve instruction to a professional level.
Yes, humans are goal-oriented. However, the goals have to be within reach enough to keep the attention for the length of time it takes most people to reach the goal. Regardless of the topic – firearms, cooking, or knitting – I’ve never known any successful course that emphasized telling students they suck with a crappy title and then only when you reach a pretty high point are you suddenly acceptable. There’s a reason that every teaching program I’ve ever known to have lasting success and generate lasting interest, especially if it involves competition, moves noobs up through levels. Consider the NRA rocker system – it goes from “Basic Practical” awarded after successful completion of an introduction class to “Distinguished Expert.” It’s a long process for most shooters to climb through the ranks, but there are intermediate goals and they can be achieved through practice and quality instruction.
It certainly sounds like an interesting event, but not one that I would ever recommend to any shooter I know. And that’s after reading what the supporters had to say.
IMHO – PDB needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I can’t seem to find the original thread referenced on arfcom, but I can imagine the general theme. I’m definitely sorry they had problems with the sight adjustment; I freely admit that adjusting irons is not my strong suit and have never made adjustments on AR-style sights. I’d quickly defer to one of the other instructors or shooters for that one.
I stand by my original statement though … please don’t condemn the Appleseed program until you have actually attended one with an open mind.
Even if you don’t think it’s the “best way” to teach new shooters, it’s a way to get shooters out and involved, and that alone is worth it.
that alone is worth it
Heh. Obviously, you’ve never read anything I’ve ever said about measures and why there’s not time to waste energy or resources on things that would never win in the marketplace. :)
My wife and I attended an Appleseed for the first time last year. She used a 10/22 with iron sites borrowed from the Instructor and I his M1A.
My wife was pretty much a noob and I wasn’t all that much more. However, we both thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, the part she didn’t like was the driving rain and 3 inches of water and mud we had to go prone in.
I’ve gone back a few times, but my wife has not..mostly due to time constraints. I finally got her back into rifle shooting at a CMP Garand match (she shot an AR15 in the open class). She had fun there too.
I like Appleseed, history and instruction methods both. I do think it is not necessarily for noobs, however.
Slings were made completely irrelevant for accurate rifle shooting the nano-second someone invented a combo bipod/forward grip.
I agree with iron sights on new shooters, but not sling. But for people who already know fundamentals, sling is a good thing to teach. Some would probably argue that the sling is a fundamental :) But I think people should be able to shoot well without one first.
Learn how to PROPERLY shoot a rifle without a sling? That’s like saying learning how to properly tie your shoes without laces.
Using a sling is not difficult and it is an integral part of accurate rifle shooting.
I can’t speak to quality or how the shoots are run, I’ve never been to one and I try to avoid criticizing things I know nothing about…
But I can speak to the style of shooting they teach. Scoring “expert” on the Army marksmanship test is a very realistic goal and if you’re teaching standard military style marksmanship…i.e. what you would be expected to be able to perform as a member of the militia…it is an excellent standard to use.
Their web site makes it very clear what they are trying to accomplish, why, and how they go about it.
Their purpose is clearly stated in the very first sentence on their web site:
“The Appleseed Program is designed to take you from being a simple rifle owner to being a true rifleman.”
They are not trying to introduce non-shooters to the shooting sports, they are trying to teach rifle owners how to be more proficient with their rifles.
So, you’re saying they shouldn’t be doing that?
Why, exactly?
Slings were made completely irrelevant for accurate rifle shooting the nano-second someone invented a combo bipod/forward grip.
How so? I have and use a bipod for prone shooting now and then; I have actually found that in a solid prone position with sling I am just as accurate as with the bipod.
For shooting sitting/kneeling position, a functional bipod is ginormous, and for standing/off-hand, the sling actually does a tremendous amount to reduce barrel float.
But I can speak to the style of shooting they teach. Scoring “expert†on the Army marksmanship test is a very realistic goal and if you’re teaching standard military style marksmanship…i.e. what you would be expected to be able to perform as a member of the militia…it is an excellent standard to use.
Well, you know what they say. There’s the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. :)
Look, the AQT is a kludge. It isn’t some super secret rifle ninja training technique. It’s the best solution an enormous bureaucracy could come up with to the problem of teaching large numbers of soldiers long distance shooting without long distance ranges.
Private sector trainers like Larry Vickers, James Yeager, Louis Awerbuck, John Farnam and others can take novice shooters and in 2 days safely teach them marksmanship as well as defensive skills like shooting from behind cover, reloading, malfunction clearance and movement.
But then again, those guys teach people to fight with their rifle, not shoot matches.
How so? I have and use a bipod for prone shooting now and then; I have actually found that in a solid prone position with sling I am just as accurate as with the bipod.
Because in a combat situation, you’re not going to have time to set up your sling. If the goal is to bring back the idea of a rifleman, ready to defend freedom, teaching how to win a high-power competition ain’t the way to do it.
Because in a combat situation, you’re not going to have time to set up your sling.
Beg to differ. Using a competition/single-point loop sling like many of us use for Appleseed, that’s true – but using a standard issue web sling, it’s VERY fast to transition to sling shooting. Faster, even, than deploying a bipod, and functional in all positions.
They are not trying to introduce non-shooters to the shooting sports, they are trying to teach rifle owners how to be more proficient with their rifles.
So, you’re saying they shouldn’t be doing that?
Why, exactly?
I’m not saying they shouldn’t be doing that, but I am questioning whether the methods are effective considering their goal of reviving militarily useful marksmanship. When was the last time the military issued M1907 slings for their combat rifles?
You haven’t been to an Appleseed (disclaimer, neither have I), personally experienced their program / teaching and you know their doing it wrong.
Huh?
Numerous shoots across the country, national advertising (okay, it’s Shotgun News), a presence on the web, several hundreds (if not thousands) of happy, sun-burned, satisfied shooters who go once, twice, three times, maybe more. It’s $70 for a weekend of instruction, plus range fees, plus camping fees or a hotel room. And motivated volunteer labor.
And in your opinion, they’re doing it wrong and they should stop doing it because they’re scaring the new shooters.
Huh?
I thought I made my concern about their program pretty clear. And yes, this is based on what I’ve read, rather than through personal experience.
Hmmmm…
There’s lots of Kool-aid out there being passed around these days. The question becomes “Whose Kool-aid are YOU drinking?” Is it the Kool-aid that says we should fold over the heads on silhouette targets and other such touchy-feely nonsense? Or is it the Kool-aid that says an armed and awakened populace will be harder to drag into tyranny?
Regarding Appleseed: It’s a good program reaching thousands of people. I’ve been to two of them so far, and even though I scored expert for five consecutive years while wearing a Marine uniform, I benefited greatly from my Appleseed experience. With all due respect, I would suggest you actually GO and check it out firsthand before criticizing it.
Mr. Bruce,
I know they’re doing it wrong and I haven’t been there. How do I know? Because I’m interested in bettering my rifle skills, have spent thousands on rifle training (much of that was actually for the travel and ammo), and looked at Appleseed material online and thought I’d rather not go there.
It’s an unconcious phenomenon you see all the time in martial arts schools. They pick a fairly unusual and specific technique: in this case, the sling, now abandoned by the world’s best military. Then they say that anyone who does not know this technique is not a real maritial artist: in this case, is a ‘cook’ not a ‘rifleman’. This enables them to feel exclusive and vastly superior to everyone else, and requires of them only a relatively small investment in practice. It’s a psychological trap. I predict getting others involved will become more and more a cover for an unconcious goal of demonstrating their superiority to the cooks.
Note that this criticism is totally unconnected to whether the sling is a good and valuable technique. I bet it is. I’d certainly like to learn it. It is connected to whether the sling is an essential requirement. Modern militaries clearly demonstrate that it is not. Appleseed says what do they know? They’re all cooks!
The fact that the world’s best military doesn’t use the sling may or may not be relevant. The issue is: Is the sling of critical value for them as don’t have everything else that the world’s best military has–that is effectively limited to rifle-armed foot or improvised motorized infantry, seeking to engage effectively at the ranges the Appleseed folks envision? In other words, is that the way to go for a force that is going to have to make up for a variety of other things that modern fully-equipped armies take for granted?
I don’t know, but clearly the Appleseed folks have plunked down their money on “yes.” I’m willing to give it a try.
There’s no be-all, end-all, one-size-fits-all. Remember, the purpose of Appleseed (I haven’t been to one, but I’m interested in trying) is very specific indeed: shooting well at the rifleman’s quarter mile. I’d point out that bipods are fine if you’re somewhere you can use one, but I’d also bet a nickel that a bipod will conk out in the field faster than a good quality, properly installed sling. All else equal, the sling also weighs less. If you’re traveling light and on foot, that might be worth something.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Appleseed, whatever else it is, is intensive instruction at a pretty affordable price. One might argue that the techniques they teach aren’t optimal, but I haven’t seen anyone claim that the techniques in question are mis-taught. I suspect, therefore, that it’s good value for the money.
III
I’m sorry that you don’t like the way we teach new people to shoot.
The program is NOT perfect.
We do think it is worth while, and hope you see your way to attend one.
You will probly shoot expert the first time, and be invited to join the instructor program.
Kool-Aid? A cult? Nope, just good old fashion marksmanship training.
The history component isn’t ment to scare people off. It is ment to give people a sense of what we have been givin. And, the importance of passing that liberty and tradition along to the next generation.
Regardless of how you do it, the main thing is to get folk to the range. Especially new shooters! We need more people in the gun culture.
Thank you for doing your part.
I don’t see why someone has to pick only one kool-aide. I took things away from Appleseed that helped me. I’m sure when I get around to front-sight I’ll take some things from their kool-aide as well.
Appleseed is training to be a rifleman. It is a subset of all the skills one would need when using a rifle. It isn’t about entering a structure and clearing it, for instance.
I disagree with those that want to toss the sling into the trashbin. A properly applied sling creates an incredibly stable shooting platform. It is not completely replaced by a bipod. Granted slings work differently for AR’s than they do for old battle rifles like M1’s or M14’s.
I’m not going to buy a bipod for my M1…not sure anyone makes one. And since I am not allowed to keep something as dangerous as an AR, it is what I have to work with.
Also, I think Appleseed instructors must vary. I attended in IL and while they did urge and teach sling usage, they did not require it nor castigate those that did not use them. Also, they did not sell any slings.
More on slings v. bipods. A sling has the advantage of holding the rifle to the rifleman, which a bipod does not. This is of advantage when using high power rifles (aka real guns) and less when using the toy guns (a tight sling will adversely affect accuracy when shooting an AR, for instance).
Sebastian and Egregious Charles:
Here’s the deal.
Go to the next Appleseed near you, pay the $70 admission, and attend both days’ classes with as open minds as you can muster.
If, at the end of the Sunday session, you truly believe that you and the other attendees didn’t receive your money’s worth, I’ll comp each of you the admission fee.
Takers?
Sebastian–
First off, thank you for letting me question you, on your blog and your bandwidth.
I come from a science fiction fan background, where people disagree with you, just to be polite. I’ve also seen flame wars up close, where Fan A asserts “That will never work”…and Fan B makes it work.
I overreacted, based on my background and I apologize.
E. Charles–
YOU! YOU’RE AN–oh wait.
I believe military doctrine dictates what gets taught in basic. I believe that doctrine changes over time, and is sometimes wrong (Maginot Line, anyone?).
Current U.S. military doctrine does not teach the use of the sling; it has in the past.
I think that your comparison to a martial arts school emphasizing a certain technique, while bitter to swallow, is apt. For what Appleseed is teaching, the sling is useful and works. So…?
If you were to show up at an Appleseed without a sling, you’d be welcome. Show up with a tube fed plinker… whatever. The purpose of the Appleseed program is to get people off the couch and out to the range, and we’ll take whatever we can get. New shooters, rifle experts, kids old enough to behave in a safe manner… old rifles, new rifles, .22’s, magnums, bolt guns, lever guns, slings, scopes, whatever you have, we’ll make it work. The course of fire lends itself toward semi-auto, removable magazine rifles with a sling and iron sights, but we’re sure as heck not going to send someone away because they have something else.
I have found that Appleseed is an excellent method of getting people to the range, and teaching them to shoot. There are other methods, and I’m not going to knock any of them, but I have yet to find a program that does it quite as well, on a nationwide basis, for anywhere near the price.
Koolaid? You get some of that, no matter how much you try not to… the glock-sters, the cult of JMB, H&K fanboys, small bore fans, .308 -or-nothing shooters, folks who support one shooting school or another… There’s always that element. We do our best to orient the program around shooters, not hardware, and I’ve never seen an Appleseed’er speak ill of someone else’s attempt to educate shooters.
Bad packaging? Can’t undo what’s been done. The Appleseed folks (myself included) believe in what we are doing. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be dedicating our time and energy to the program. Promotion is a difficult job, we do our best. Got a good idea of how we should be packaging ourselves? Come on in, we’d be glad to have you!
Chris Midkiff
Appleseed Program
Missouri State Coordinator
Yeah, the audacity and insenstivity of it all…daring to bring up the original intent of the Second Amendment in an applicable and historical context…
I’ve been shooting for more than 30 years. Big problem is that I never learned how in the beginning! I had one basic handgun class, and that was it.
Having lived in California, the opportunity and incentive to go out shooting was seriously lacking most of those years as well.
Then I moved to Wyoming! I took a lot of serious training with my handguns, but was reluctant to try a rifle until I went to an Appleseed here. What an eye opener that was! Every accommodation needed was given to me, and I had a lot of fun as well as excellent instruction. I set it up with my gun club to host another Appleseed each spring from now on… and I’ll be there.
I’ve got a long way to go, much to learn, and I’ll be happy to be the cook. I’m too old for the front lines anyway, but by golly if the camp gets attacked, I can give a good account of myself.
The history is absolutely necessary. Far, far too many people have never really heard the truth.
Is Appleseed the best, or right for everyone, or perfect the way it is? Of course not. But it is best for some, and everyone involved is working hard to improve it all the time. I don’t know how much more anyone could expect.
As an RWVA Instructor, I will pay your $70 fee myself, or $140 for the pair of you for a weekend.
All I require is that you do it is three things. Do it my way after the inital RedCoat target of the first day. You also must attend one of “my” shoots. Email me for a complete list. You must also come with an open mind.
If you do not have a rifle that can use 1.25 sling swivels (GI Web sling), you may borrow either my M1A (you supply ammo), my XCR (I will supply 200 rounds 5.56, you wil need another 200-300) or either of my 10-22 LTR’s (Liberty Training Rifles, 1 with irons, one with scope) and Ammo for the weekend. There may also be other Rifles availible for loan depending on which shoot of mine you attend. We will see the when and wheres and see what else is availible.
I taught Melancton Smith and his wife, letting them use my Rifles (He insited on paying me for my ammo, but I cut him a deal on the South African! LOL!).
Why am I doing this?
Simply because you shouldn’t critique without experience is a little of it.
The most of it is this.
The program is good, and a good thing. Even if the History does not impress you or touch you, the skills you will learn will. There is no Kool Aid to drink (but there is an Instructor out in Cali named that!!LOL!) though I would recomend plenty of water.
Tac gear is not needed, but I would wear fatigue pants simply because jeans are a bit constricting in certain positions. If you bring your own Rifles, you will need at least 2 mags holding a total of 10 rounds, although 4 twenty rounders would be better. 5 enblocks, or x number of stripper clips, etc. Email me, or reply here if you can’t see mine for some reason, and we will figure it out.
I hope to see you there soon(ish).
Of course, if you turn me down, I expect you to STFU until such a time as you can attend, and give an experienced oppinion.
Guy
ps, yes, we are not all things Rifle related. Fundamentals, yes. Will you leave knowing more than before? Yes. Will you have a good time? MY $140 says you will.
Latest post on the subject here:
http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/08/27/reconsidering-2/
The Guy is *the* guy! In addition to being an excellent instructor, his impassioned witness to history places you in the moment.
Was in combat many times and always found time to work in a decent enough loop sling when necessary. Takes all of 10 seconds and when something along the lines of a 500 + yard iron sight shot is attempted, it helps.
Guy:
Your email’s hidden unless you put it in the message.
darth.unix.jedi@gmail.com