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Flipping the Switch

Interesting discussion over at Instapundit on what to do when your government flips off the Internet in an attempt to squash dissent. Ham Radio has become something old people do, to some degree, but it would be the logical backup. Personally, I think once the Government is switching off the Internet to squash dissent, is when it’s time to start thinking about a backup plan that involves hot lead.

62 Responses to “Flipping the Switch”

  1. MicroBalrog says:

    BBC tells us that the Egyptians have managed to contrive some kind of connection using proxies, but I’m not sure what that is about.

  2. Freiheit says:

    A few of the smaller ISPs are still up too. I think either Robb or Slashdot mentioned it.

  3. Stew says:

    When we are at the point that the government is trying to switch off the internet, we are well past the point of talking…

  4. SidViscous says:

    It’s interesting, this is an aside to a lot of other things that so many 21st century people get so confused about and forget the old ways. Like stocking up on water the night before a big snowstorm.

    The answer is to use runners, as we did for so many centuries. IN the modern way, you get the 13 and 14 year old kids who have way too much energy and have been crawling around the city for years and know the hideouts and how to get around.

    Radios are better and faster. The problem is that besides the enemy being able to listen in, when your city is falling apart like this, being able to do things like charge batteries becomes difficult.

    The Irish did a good job without radios against the English in the early part of the 20th century.

  5. I have my amateur radio technicians license (KJ4HTR) which I studied for by using a Q&A approach. Anyone with a bit of a memory could pass that test. Knowledge of Morse code is no longer required. It cost all of $10 for the license which is good for 10 years.

    Small handheld radios are available on Craigslist and eBay for under $100 or in the $2-300 range new. They are smaller than many of the early cell phones and you can reach around the world with them. Moreover, there aren’t any tell-tale antenna installations like with base stations to attract attention.

    Signal repeaters are usually run by clubs or interested amateurs and NOT the government. They can be used to beam your signal further.

    The one thing I have found common in older Ham’s is the desire to help newcomers. They are afraid their hobby will die out and are actively seeking new blood.

  6. Eck! says:

    OK.. Just how will they turn off the interrnet? The internet is a large number (larger than 10^6) of interconnected systems.
    If you turn a few off the software automatically seeks alternate paths. What are they going to do tell all the ISPs and private companies to stop talking to each other electronically? It would be easier to collect all the telephones (and cellphones, and …) in a state and as unsuccessful.

    Old school (ca 1970s) computers called other computers and transfered the “mail” using a simple protocol and modems. that was the early days of DARPA net then ARPAnet (and uunet, bitnet and a few others). It’s like building roads, if the main route fails you use others, things get real bad you start hiking.
    It would not take more than a few hours to replicate the old UUCP transfer networks that us old farts remember. The difference is now computers are small, portable, and very prolific.

    Ham radio is not just old farts. It’s a large and growing mixed population of people. That group has access to satellites (and not just a few), multiple bands with varied communications range and the 2.4GHZ WIFI band is a shared band with hams.
    That last one is significant as the a few hams have gone out and set a few records for the longest wifi path. Think, if your average user gets a few hundred feet on wifi, some hams
    took it out to 161KM. Hams have use a host of other digital methods to communicate available to them.

    Now those Egyptians did what any IT person would do, then established a link from somewhere to somewhere else and the wifi gear to do that is pretty common and with a trivial to build
    directional antenna your wrt54g router can talk many miles
    if there not are any trees or hills in the way. Hop over the border
    in the process and you are connected. There is more but thats
    the important part the proxy is really any old computer running the right software that most any literate person can set up.
    It can easily be hid!

    Eck!

  7. Sebastian says:

    You could totally kill it, but if you ordered all the tier 1 providers to switch off, you’d essentially kill it.

  8. Freiheit says:

    Eck! – You turn it off by disrupting the routing tables. You can’t route around damage if you don’t know that there is an alternate route.

    Not sure how technical you are, but for the gist of it drop into a command line and run: tracert snowflakesinhell.com

    What you’ll see is that to get here, you have to connect to your ISP then over a backbone, maybe to another backbone, and down to Verizon who seems to host the blog. If at any point in that process someone isn’t saying “you can go through me to reach snowflakes” you can’t find a route to get there. So an ‘internet kill switch’ is just a matter of having all the routers in a given area say “sorry we can’t get your data to where you want it to go”.

    In a smaller, less connected nation with more government involvement in telecomms this is easier. It would be difficult but not impossible in the US. Its clearly feasable in Egypt and Tunisia.

  9. SidViscous says:

    Eck! the self repairing re-routing of the Internet is theoretical. Minnesota was once cut off when one connection went down. You could connect within your own ISP but not out of it, and not the internet in general.

    Same thing happened in the Northeast a few years ago when the trunkline coming out of Boston went down.

    The reality is that you cannot connect to your neghbor and then across the nation. The second or third stop on any ping I do is in VA (I live in NH). Everything goes to VA and then takes the shortest hops to the final destination. If my line to VA went down I would be cut off from everyone but maybe my neighbors, and since my ISPs servers are responsible for all protocols I wouldn’t be able to do much but ping my neighbors.

    There isn’t one wire to shut down, reckon less than 100 connections at the backbone and we would go silent.

  10. mikeb302000 says:

    I thought about you “think about hot lead” guys this morning when I read about Egypt. Now, not only do we have to hear you guys continually talking about 1930s Germany but I guess it’ll be modern day Egypt also to prove you’re right to be ready to fight the government.

    I wish you could just step back and listen to yourselves. Some of you never got over that high-school way of boasting your toughness. With your little guns you’re going to do exactly what if the government goes too far. And that’s the other point, as badly corrupt as the USA is, we’re not Egypt for crying out loud. No one is shutting off your communications just like no one is coming to confiscate your guns.

  11. Sebastian says:

    And where exactly did I suggest any of that Mike?

  12. Sebastian says:

    Let me ask you this Mike… do you think the Declaration of Independence is a just and moral document?

  13. GMC70 says:

    No one is shutting off your communications just like no one is coming to confiscate your guns.

    That is, not yet.

    And the surest way to prevent that is to make sure that the cost of doing so is unacceptably high.

    No one here desires to go to “hot lead.” But we understand a basic truth: the nature of government, left to its own devices unchecked, is to trend toward tyrrany. That’s just the nature of human beings. Gun ownership in the hand of the people (who are ultimately sovereign, remember) constantly reminds governments that going there will, ultimately, bear a cost.

    I don’t know if a wide-spread revolt would succeed; perhaps, perhaps not; ultimately, that’s less important than the fact that it’s possible. The knowledge that it’s even possible serves as a deterrent.

    Step back? Indeed. You should step back and listen to your naivety.

  14. Freiheit says:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/28/egyptian_madia_crackdown/ – They’re going after traditional media now too.

  15. Eck! says:

    I’m technical (hardware and software engineer). I’m also a ham
    and commercial Radio.

    Yes, you can break the routing tables at key points, many, many of them. For the average user it’s broken, for others its
    workaround time.

    However if you know enough to challenge me on that you also know you can do explicit routing and create a path to working routing. I was shoveling email across the country in the very early 80s (prePC) a Z80 powered box. Now I have multiple systems that run off batteries and outclass that z80 by 10^3 and then some.

    When the NE trunkline went down it impacted me as in the alternate paths I created for myself were slow but usable.
    I’m in the home of stupid gun laws..

    However I could just have easily switched to a modem, called
    a system in anther state (modem support still exists!) and still communicated and still have my modem to Etherenet (IP4 and DECnet) bridge/router as it was easy to store in case I needed a legacy machine for other work.

    As a ham I can wait for a sat pass and push/pull data to anywhere in that sats footprint and since it’s a LEO that footprint moves. Or go to HF and do same at lower data
    rates but on global scale paths.

    In the end to kill the internet completely you also have to shutdown the TELCOs, Cables systems and rely on people to be unable to work around that. Many cannot, but those that can will.

    That and if you cripple communications people will get PO’d.
    It’s about their money then.

    Look at the Egypt case. They tried to close the door, but everyone knows. That and sooner or later someone will
    get a cable or radio connection going to get traffic over the border. In the end all they can do is cripple their own commerce.

    Eck!

  16. Bill Twist says:

    Ham radio is *NOT* something that old farts do.

    Well, some do, but hams have always been at the forefront of communications technology. Generally, if you look at something that is a common place communications technology, hams were doing it years before it became ‘commercial’. Some examples:

    Wireless computer networking: Hams have been doing that since the 1980’s.

    Cellphones: Hams have been able to access the phone system using handheld radios and repeaters with autopatch capability since the 1970’s.

    Texting? Tweets? Hams were doing that with APRS since the early 1990’s.

    You want to see the future of communications? Look at the bleeding edge of ham radio today, then dumb it down and make it smaller and faster, and that’s what you’ll be doing in 10 to 20 years.

  17. Freiheit says:

    “They tried to close the door, but everyone knows. ” – This seems like simple signal analysis. There should be some normal level of traffic going from $CountryX to $World or $CountryY. If that deviates significantly it would indicate some sort of event.

  18. Eck! says:

    Freiheit:

    Yes, you might be able to track it to the gateway point if it’s not obscured. What if the path is one you don’t know and doesn’t route your stuff?

    We have spammers doing this all the time. Seems we don’t catch many of them.

    Think many small holes, think only a small piece of a message going through any one hole. What if the data goes out one path but the responses take an entirely different one. Assume the surrounding networking areas (companies or countries) are cooperative (or capitalist) and see how things could happen other ways. Be certain to encrypt everything.

    In reality you don’t have a big lever on the internet that says
    OFF/ON. That and all companies that are a part of the “net”
    make money off it and well I think they are fond of that
    revenue. So I’m a bit skeptical on this happening only because it has to lead to other more draconian events.

    Then again Egypt is now doing the lets shut own all the traditional things too now.

    Eck!

  19. Stranger says:

    Since the code requirement was dropped, most of the new chums are still in high school. They are very active and very enthusiastic. Range? Ordinarily about 20 miles with the entry ticket; world wide with the first step up license. The Volunteer Examiner team will nick you about $15 for expenses, and the best study guides are available at arrl.org.

    Stranger

  20. Dann in Ohio says:

    I agree with Sebastian…

    About the time the government goes “CLICK” on the internet switch to quell dissent…

    … is about the same time the safety on my firearm goes “CLICK”…

    Dann in Ohio

  21. Ian Argent says:

    I really ought to get my ham ticket. I keep saying that, but I need another $10^2 hobby like I need a hole in my bank account…

    There are weak points in the internet infrastructure, but in the US loosening up tolerances in timeouts will get you by most of them.

    The point remains, an internet kill switch has a primary purpose of Being Evil – it’s JOB is to stop EVERYONE from talking. The point at which a government is willing to shut down everyone is well past the point of legitimacy.

  22. Roberta X says:

    Packet radio. It’s like USENET with handy-talkie-size VHF/UHF radios. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio

    As other commenters have pointed out, a Tech-Class ham ticket is very simple to get, as easy as (most) CCWs, with no Morse Code, etc. And A) you’re still on your computer plus B) crossing over into e-mail out of packet is not too unusual. You won’t have the Web and lovely pictures, but information would get out.

    Start NOW. Packet requires active nodes.

  23. hillbilly says:

    Look at what this paranoid whacko psuedo-journalism site calling itself “CBS” has to say about a government’s power to kill the Internet.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20029302-501465.html

  24. RezDuane says:

    Hams have been using “packets” for quite a while now. Not exactly sure how it works although I am a ham and have used it. I can talk around the world using 2 meters but connecting to a repeater system that uses a similar technology.
    As long as I can use my radios I’m not worried about communication. The one thing that does worry me is an EMP.

  25. Eck! says:

    RezDuane: interconnected repeaters are using the internet VOIP technology. No internet, no voip. However there are a few that use UHF radio to do the point to point work and the that is impressive.

    The 20 mile comment someone made is typical of those that have never done much real radio other than a hand held for VHF with a stub antenna. As a ham I’m very active at VHF and UHF weak signal work. Typical day to day range is way more than 20 miles and I tend to think in terms of regional (130-150mile radius) in the lumpy terrain of New England without repeaters to help.

    Ever talk to the space station? Yes, they have ham radio and it’s used often, With a hand held radio you can talk to them. I have and its fun.

    As far as cost. It’s not a 10^2 hobby for me. I’ve built gear and antennas for far less and easily covered 4*10^3 miles with it.
    Old radios can be had, and older ones often cheap for those that are handy. One of my favorites is tube radio from the early 70s that works well and parts, even tubes, for them are easy to find and cheap Range with a simple wire antenna is typically hundreds to thousands of miles.

    Packet used to be popular as it gave the pre-internet era coverage for digital messaging . Now modes like PSK31 via
    a cheap computer or laptop and a inexpensive 3W radio can cover thousands of miles and provide digital messaging independent of infrastructure or internet.

    There is far more to it. It’s not old farts in front of big radios
    jawin. It’s kids and families with amazingly small radios working
    astounding distances or sending images, or working another country via a LEO satellite.

    Oddly CW is not dead. If anything since it’s not required it’s more popular. While harder than talking into a microphone
    the radios especially transmitters are far simpler and more efficient.

    Amateur radio, it’s primary mandate is to provide a pool of
    trained and experienced communicators for emergencies.

    Eck!

  26. mikeb302000 says:

    Sebastian, Where did you suggest any of that, you ask. You did say “it’s time to start thinking about a backup plan that involves hot lead,” did you not?

    About the D of I, yeah I guess it WAS a just and moral document. Does that have something to do with us today?

  27. Ash says:

    My understanding is that Egypt used their control over the main four ISPs, specifically their DNS servers and routing to effect the kill switch.

    The motive is less about stopping media from getting out, which it has not since there are plenty of satellite dishes and other mechanisms. The governments goal is instead to deprive protesters of Twitter, Facebook, blogs and email used to *organize* mass protests. They cut off cell coverage for the same reason.

    In that context, packet data over ham radio doesn’t help much since so few people have access to ur.

  28. Dannytheman says:

    I am a Ham. Have been for 30+ years. I am also an active member of the Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES)in my community. I strongly recommend Ham radio to everyone. I routinely drill with the loss of land-line Internet and we never lose Internet connection. We just switch to an active system somewhere else, even if that somewhere else is another country. I work HF Digital, VHF/UHF digital and various modes of operation that have multiple redundancies.
    Ham radio is an incredibly diverse hobby that can truly open an entire new world to most people. Take your time and explore it at ARRL.ORG .

  29. Stew says:

    mikeb302000 “About the D of I, yeah I guess it WAS a just and moral document. Does that have something to do with us today?”

    If the Declaration of Independence is not now a just and moral document, it was not then a moral document.

    Moral truths do not change.

  30. Roberta X says:

    Mikeb30200, do you have ANY plan for dire circumstances that doesn’t involve rolling over and hoping they’ll be done with you soon?

    Sometimes it’s better to go down fighting.

  31. Mikeb30200, do you have ANY plan for dire circumstances that doesn’t involve rolling over and hoping they’ll be done with you soon?

    No, Roberta, no he doesn’t.

  32. Ian Argent says:

    @Eck!: I can get into ham radio (external of the cost to get the chit) for less than $100? Prices have gone down significantly since I used to accompany my father to hamfests. I’m not particularly handy with a soldering iron, and my EM1xx classes are a distant memory.

    And, as with any other hobby, it’s not the initial cost, but the upkeep. I have in the basement what is probably a grand or more of wargaming and RPG miniatures, and more than that in CCGs (and I haven’t done anything serious with either of those hobbies in years). Not to mention how much I’ve spent on computer gear. And now I have ammo costs… My cash budget is stretched, and my time budget non-existant.

  33. mobo says:

    I always thought that HAM would be fun to get into, but I need some basic education before taking a plunge.

    Anybody here have a link to any websites that might help? Keep in mind that I am a technophobe who can can’t even get a computer connected to a router without tech support.

  34. RezDuane says:

    @mobo: you can start here: http://www.arrl.org/
    There are some practice tests online in various places. Just Google ham license test for a list.
    @eck! Yeah, what I was thinking of was Echolink. If a repeater has Echolink capabilities you can link up to just about anywhere; http://www.echolink.org/links.jsp?sel=all&lat_deg=35&lat_min=13.316399999999788&lat_NS=North&lon_deg=101&lon_min=13.316399999999788&lon_EW=West&gs=DM95cf&city=&state=&country=US&d=2

    And no, haven’t tried the space station yet though I’ve heard about it. Seems I always have ‘other stuff’ keeping me too busy . . .

  35. Scott says:

    Ham radio, arms, and preparedness go hand in hand. If you have a gun, chances are you’ll find good friends in ham radio. Spending on your ham radio hobby is like spending on women (or guns): there’s no upper limit.

    Local repeaters are great… simplex modes is how a lot of information is exchanged. You can move a lot of text info with the higher speed PSK modes and if you require error correction there’s a mode for that too.

    It’s not difficult to start ham radio with $15 for a license exam, and some chinese import VHF radios are very affordable.

    Communication on HF is not much more depending on your radio’s desired feature set and antenna. Antennas are easy to build.

    For quick comms, hams have primary license covering 2.4GHz. Hams have lots of bandwidth so get some gear and figure out how to use it.

    If one freqency is in operation, find another. If it’s jammed go find the interference source and end it.

    You can have lots of friends, and when you need them the most you need them with comm gear, food, water and weapons.

  36. RezDuane says:

    @Scott: Great info!

  37. Robert says:

    If it got to the point where we had a scenario like Egypt, being licensed for my radio is the last thing I’d want as that tells the gov who has the equipment. For the same reason I don’t want my gun licensed.

    And please don’t buy radios from china.

  38. mikeb302000 says:

    Roberta, That image of “roll over and hope they’re done with you soon,” is a graphic example of how you think.
    And what “dire circumstances” were you thinking about anyway, we were talking about the government shutting down the internet? But you can’t stop that silly fantasizing of violence.

    The fact is you are much worse off with a gun if a dire circumstance happens to find you. I’ve seen the way you handle guns. You do remember it was my criticism of that which got me banned from your blog, don’t you?

  39. Roberta X says:

    You’ve seen the way I handle guns? In what sick fantasy of your twisted mind?

    The only time I’ve been pictured online “handling guns,” Tam and I were shooting against one another in a bowling pin contest. We both brought too few magazines to the line and had to run back to the prep area, empty-handed. It was funny as can be; it was a wicked cold day and the pins were falling, but not off the table.

    I chased you off my blog ‘cos you’re rude. You went because you are a coward.

    And you’re still a coward. What plan do you have for widespread rioting, government crackdowns, and similar civil badness that doesn’t involve either rolling over or hiding in a cupboard?

  40. Stew says:

    Nice slide from the discussion to the ad hominim mikeb302000, but that’s besides the point.

    If guns are so harmful in dire circumstances, why do soldiers and police have them?

  41. Eck! says:

    <>

    The license is study and ($15, 2007) and you able then. Antennas are wire, radio maybe a loaner or for the price of a fair
    1911 for something capable. You might find someone that would loan or give you something older. In the end you have to want to do it. How much it costs, varies with level of involvement. A new 2M 50W mobile radio is around $120
    and a good entry point for local communications.

    Like Roberta, I do radio, no firearms yet(damn MA) and consider emergency preparedness (fires, floods, severe storms,
    power outages) a good thing. This means also solar power, battery banks (not off grid) and being prepared for generally anything.

    Eck!

  42. Ian Argent says:

    @Eck! – That’s about what I thought. I might be able to get a cheap 2-meter-band unit off my father; but it’s still in the $10^2 range for getting into amateur radio. Right now, I’d rather buy a second handgun or pistol-caliber carbine. That may change, since I don’t feel the need to collect firearms – eventually my “slots” will be full.

  43. kaveman says:

    Roberta, mikeB302000 is confusing you and Breda.

    He’s been banned from so many blogs, he can’t keep them all straight.

  44. “What plan do you have for widespread rioting, government crackdowns, and similar civil badness that doesn’t involve either rolling over or hiding in a cupboard?”

    Roberta, you’ve got him all wrong. He is looking forward to rolling over. All of us gunloons are messing up his fantasy of getting oppressed in a very personal way. Some people are just born to be slaves.

  45. Geodkyt says:

    And what, precisely, about Breda’s handling of firearms (as shown in video or still photos), would make MikeB state that she would inexoriably be “worse off” when armed?

    Was it the inherent ninja-like abilities of American colonists that won the American Revolution? (Actually, no. Admittedly, without the individual skill at arms and common possession of arms that allowed the Revolution to survive repeated losses when amateurs faced the world’s best infantry. . . right up to the point where American forces became competant at European-style warfare, so they were 90% as good as teh British, but had MASSIVE advantages in numbers and logistics “in-theater”.)

    Maybe all the Viet Cong, Taliban goat humpers, Al Qaeda in Iraq “insurgants” (hmmm. . . “insurgants” who generally tend to be uninvited foreigners who specifically target the locals. . . I guess when you;re the leftist press you get to redefine facts as your ideology demands), etc., that the United States military has faced and had a hard time dealing with were all Uber-Elite magna cum laude graduates of the highly classified and unknown Illuminati Secret Squirrel Commnado Academy?

    I know — the reason the Germans ended up taking a month to subdue the Warsaw Ghetto (and then a year later had to devote troops from the Soviet advance to RE-subdue the city of Warsaw), was the half dozen or so Jews with guns (mostly handguns, most of the original shooters had never HELD a gun) who kicked off the whole thing were actually space aliens with genetically programmed Mad Leet N1nj4 Sk1LLz.

    Breda handles firearms just fine, even if there is room for improvement in places (as there is in practically all shooters. . . including the rather ordinary looking – and often quite boring sounding in casual conversation – ACTUALLY elite, highly trained, guys who actually do for a living what fanboiz can’t even do in a computer game).

    From what I have determined of her performance, she shoots better than most military personnel worldwide. Top tier militaries like the US and British, where personnel are actually taught to SHOOT, however rudimentary the training seems to “real” marksmen, are the exceptionrather than the norm. (Most militaries only teach their personnel how to “service” the weapon in combat, relying on the old theory, “While there’s lead in the air, there’s hope in the heart!” It works, for certain values of “works” — send enough fire out and most lesser militaries will either bug out or hunker down; if they bug out, you walk in and take over, and if you suppress the enemy, you can walk right up to him and shoot him down at rock-throwing range like it’s the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. SMG “tank rider” tactics, conducted with AKs.)

    Even though she is what many experienced and well trained shooters would consider a fairly new shooter, with a gun in her hand, she is capable of being far more lethal than many highly experienced “warriors” so common to Third World conflicts, much less common street thugs. For one, whe knows what those funny looking things sticking up on the top of the gun are used for, AND how to use them.

    Despite being the most common combat techique of “warriors”, a full auto 30-round mag dump from an AK held at hip level is rarely a theat past 100 yards or so. Breda with a Garand, (even with the slow rate of fire necessitated by recoil recovery, given her size and balance), equipped only with a single eight round clip, is likely to make more effective hits than the typical Third World “warrior” with a chest pack of AK mags. I mean, she’ll probably get at least four hits at anything out to 300 meters, which is at least double the effectiveness of some Al Qaeda terrorist or Liberian thug. Being able to brutally hose down a crowd of unarmed civilians at 50 yards, or a family in a 10×10 room is not an indication of small arms skills.

  46. Roberta X says:

    …I think to Mike, it is.

  47. Stew says:

    That’s a bit mean. I don’t think MikeB wants to see families shot inside their homes. Though he tempers that with wanting to make sure those families have no tools to resist someone coming in and hosing their domicile with lead.

  48. Dann in Ohio says:

    I had decided not to back-n-forth with mikeb302000’s comments on this post or others. While I welcome debate and conversation with those of opposing views… he is obviously what’s known in the gun blogosphere to some as an “anti-gun troll”.

    To be fair, there are “pro-gun trolls” antagonizing folks over at the anti-gun blogs too.

    Bottom line is until mikeb lives through a situation or envisions where he is the only thing between him or his family and people who truly wish to do them harm – it is just a waste of hypothetical discussion.

    I am usually 5-30 minutes from police assistance in my rural location. My cousin lived through Katrina in New Orleans where police, fire, rescue and utilities services (including internet and cell service) literally disappeared for days in a “modern” urban city – so rural or urban doesn’t matter.

    You’re either in the mindset of taking care of yourself or having faith in some unknown person taking care of you… it’s ultimately each of our own choices, but if your faith is placed elsewhere – fine – just don’t try to render me in the same situation.

    If you want to argue that societal or infrastructural collapse can’t happen here (even by the government’s doings or choice), there is plenty of youtube video of Katrina, the 1992 Rodney King riots, Detroit riots, 1968 riots, east coast blackout, Blizzard of ’78, etc. to prove otherwise.

    Dann in Ohio

  49. mikeb302000 says:

    Sorry Roberta, kaveman is right I was thinking of Breda and I have been banned from so many blogs I can’t keep them straight.

    If I wasn’t banned from yours and stopped coming around it was out of respect. I thought you’d banned me and I didn’t want to disobey. When I’m asked to leave someplace, I go not out of cowardice but out of respect. It’s your place.

    But, may I point out that in the rude department you do pretty well yourself. Or, is that just in response to my rudeness?

  50. Bob S. says:

    But, may I point out that in the rude department you do pretty well yourself. Or, is that just in response to my rudeness?

    I think that is the most polite version of I am rubber, you are glue… I’ve ever seen.

    Mikeb302000 — would you say it is rude to ask questions you are unwilling to answer yourself?

  51. RuffRidr says:

    But, may I point out that in the rude department you do pretty well yourself.

    You are the subject matter expert. You practically have the market cornered.

  52. Geodkyt says:

    And yet, MikeB cannot say what it is about Breda’s shooting that he (world famous small arms combat master that he no doubtedly is) thinks so obviously makes her “worse off” if she had a gun than if she didn’t?

    Or is this just more of his misogynist BS?

  53. ‘Cause, you know, a chick is a chick, right?

    And chicks with guns fit very poorly into the worldview of a dude whose self image is based on the belief that people need his rescuing.

  54. mikeb302000 says:

    Bob S. asks in feigned seriousness, “Mikeb302000 — would you say it is rude to ask questions you are unwilling to answer yourself?”

    I never asked you what gun laws you broke 30 years ago or 20 years ago. You ask me that so often that poor Sebastian sometimes feels faint from the repetition.

    Geodkyt, You need to look through Breda’s archives to see the video’s I’m referring to. In one she fired an M-14, I think it was, with such a poor stance that she was knocked back a step or two by the recoil. I was the first commenter on that thread and pointed out that maybe she needed to rotate her body around a bit so as not to face the target so much. The outpouring of outrage was incredible from her fanboys until one of two of the more honest ones said I’d had a point.

    A few days later she posted a supposedly funny video of herself trying unsuccessfully to rack the slide on a handgun. During the silliness she broke one or two of the Four Rules of Gun Safety. My pointing that out got me banned.

  55. Like they pointed out to you at the time, Breda has a prosthetic lower leg. That makes it difficult to stand in a modern “combat” stance.

    Pardon us if we take ANYTHING you say about guns with a grain of salt. As a matter of fact, if you said that the sky was blue, I’d go out and check. And I’d probably not be alone.

  56. Bob S. says:

    MikeB302000,

    You’ve asked questions about the means and methods of storing our firearms.
    You won’t answer the same question.
    You’ve asked questions about drinking and carrying firearms.
    You won’t answer the same question.
    You’ve asked questions about shooting up stop signs.
    You won’t answer the same questions.

    You have asked questions about us obeying gun laws — such as carrying at a post office or prohibited places.
    You won’t answer the same question.

    The reason you haven’t asked about the gun laws I broke 20 or 30 years ago is simple.

    I haven’t admitted to breaking the laws like you did.

    To sum up, I did Parris Island Marine Corp training when I was 17, in the summer of 1970. I didn’t have to go to Viet Nam, thank goodness. After the military I owned guns both legally and illegally over a period of about 15 years. I was never passionate about them back then and over the last couple of decades have become strongly anti-gun, especially since I started writing this blog.

    For the record, I have never illegally owned firearms.

    Now since you are so curious about our law abiding ways, let’s talk about your breaking the law, eh?

    And as far as not asking about breaking the law

    Column A – Bad will include any first hand experience with a gun that was negative, like the 20 I described before. Included will be not only any killings or shootings but also potential ones. If someone drew down on others in anger or as a threat and you were there, it belongs here. Listed will be illegal possession of firearms by people of questionable competence and responsibility, like my nephew.

    Isn’t that statement from your Great Gun Survey from Sept 17, 2008.

    Sounds awful lot like you are asking about people breaking the law.

  57. Sebastian says:

    You won’t answer the same question.

    Of course he won’t. Why? Because it drives you nuts that he won’t. That’s why he’s one of the best bridge dewellers out there.

  58. Bob S. says:

    Sebastian,

    Actually it doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t answer the question.
    I don’t expect criminals to incriminate themselves.

    I also don’t mind spending time pointing out his illegal behavior that wasn’t stopped by the laws in place.

    I don’t mind pointing out his hypocrisy just in case someone trapped underground for 10 years might not know of MikeB302000’s trollish behavior.

    It is worth the time — and the effort — to needle him and point out we have a living example of that parody “Criminals for Gun Control”.

  59. mikeb302000 says:

    Sebastian you’re partly right and I don’t mean about the bridge.

    Bob S, you’re an obsessed nut who knows nothing about what I did or failed to do but you keep saying “pointing out his illegal behavior” as if you know what you’re talking about.

    Sean, I don’t think you were around during that dust-up with Breda. And as I remember her handicap didn’t come up, besides you’re wrong about it explaining the improper stance. That had to do with her foolishly facing the target too much instead of rotating her body around a few more degrees.

  60. Wow, talk about self centered. Just because you didn’t know about me doesn’t mean I wasn’t around.

    I remember the blog post about Breda and the M-14 vividly. A bunch of dumb shits trying to tell her how she was doing it all wrong without considering her physical limitations and the fact that she’s small, the rifle was heavy, she was tired, and it was the end of a long day. Since you are so stupid that you can’t be bothered to read the post again, let me assure you that her leg did most certainly come up. It was Ambulance Driver that brought it up. Then 3 days later, after listening to a bunch of jackasses opining, she posted her response.
    http://www.thebredafallacy.com/2009/11/stop-it.html

    Maybe instead of trying to use your Swiss cheese memory, you should have done a bit of basic research before you shot off your mouth. But why start now. You never checked your facts before.

    It’s crap like this particular incident that got you banned at my blog before you ever showed up. You see, I’ve been blogging for only a few months, but I’ve been reading gun blogs for YEARS. This is just one example of your idiotic behavior. So get back under your bridge.

  61. Geodkyt says:

    Ah, Mikey,

    I was wondering if it was the M14 post you were referring to. You see, I actually had that video in mind when discussing Breda being a VERY credible threat “. . .even with the slow rate of fire necessitated by recoil recovery, given her size and balance”.

    6-10 hits a minute (that being about how fast she can lay down aimed fore, depending on position) beats 300 misses a minute (that being about how fast you could do repeated mag dumps out of an AK, like your typical Third World thug).

    Yeah, I remember that post on the M14 — I commented under another name then (my actual name and last initial, before switching to this long term on line handle because I ran into at least two other guys who have the same first name and last initial also commenting on the same types of blogs I was reading).

    And, NO, Mikey — facing off the target would not have helped her with the recoil. Leaning more into the gun might — but I’m not going to judge whether she could adequately balance properly on her prosthetic (that being the one she’d be leaning on), as although I’ve met the lady, I saw no reason to demand she detail how high her amputation site is.

    So, she fired a round and had to step back. . . not the end of the world. . . unless you’re looking at it from the target’s perspective, in which case it might well be.

    I _KNOW_ I am qualified to judge her competence — I’ve got a pair of old campaign hats and a green uniform with a cambridge blue rope around one arm in the closet for credos. I say she is doing just fine, especially in comparison to most “military” shooters who don’t belong to an English or German speaking military.

  62. Geodkyt says:

    (Quick note for the competent)

    300 RPMs may seem a bit fast to professionals, even for ignorant mag dumps. Look at the photographic evidence out of Africa, especially teh most recent Liberian Civil War, and refer to Kokalis — “Your average infantryman will opt for the shortest barrel and largest magazine he can find.”

    300 RPMs — i.e., spending as much time loading as firing — is a very credible for a jackass who scored RPK mags or better yet — RPK drums. Of course, he’ll then get to watch his upper handguard catch fire, but hey! he looks cool. . . (which is REALLY what matter to tribal warriors).

    (Note for the incompetant)

    Mikey, the next time I want to hear more of your unjustfied arrogant ignorance dribble from that anus you call a mouth, I’ll pop over to your blog or Joan’s for som “Reasoned Discourse”.

    Until then, quit trying to talk to me about firearms competence. I’ve probably kicked more qualified people than you OUT of the military for stupidity.

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