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Another Open Carry Dust-up

From Rob Pincus:

I think Open Carry is a poor choice in populated areas when you have other options (CCW) to be armed for personal protection. I vehemently believe that you should NOT carry a gun for political reasons, but solely as a means of defense.

Snarkybytes doesn’t like Pincus’s statement at all. Uncle is somewhere in the middle. I’m not willing to say that carrying for a political purpose is wrong. My message has generally been to just be smart about how you go about it. That only part of Rob Pincus’ statement I really agree with is that OC is a poor choice in populated areas looking at it strictly from a tactical point of view, unless you’re carrying in a holster with proper retention and have had some level of retention training. That’s not, IMHO, a justification for banning the practice, but personally, it’s not something I’d be comfortable doing absent retention training.

Here’s my real problem with suggesting that carrying for political purposes is wrong. It could end up being that the Supreme Court rules that open carry is constitutionally protected, but not concealed carry. There are a few state right to keep and bear arms cases that mirror this position. While I think it’s probably more likely the Court will just protect carry, and leave to the states the manner in which they choose to regulate the practice, there is a chance they could adopt the position that only open carry is protected activity, and that as long as it’s allowed, the states can ban concealed carry.

If that’s the case, we’re going to need people to carry for political reasons, while state and local authorities in hostile jurisdictions are taught a lesson in exactly what “right” entails. Those early individuals are going to be carrying more for political reasons than reasons of self-protection. It’s hard for me to see, however, why that would be wrong.

55 Responses to “Another Open Carry Dust-up”

  1. David says:

    Here we go again, get ready for the the drama in the comments. No doubt the militant OC crowd is going to show up and tell us about how OC deters crime, educates, and normalizes people to seeing guns.

    A quick google search for “Negative OC encounter” should tell you all you need to know about the armed activists and their antics.

  2. Sebastian says:

    Just remember folks, you must be this tall

    +—–
    |
    |
    |
    |

    to ride the drama llama.

  3. David says:

    To further clarify, since it will come up. I am not anti-OC. I am anti doing dumb shit in the name of furthering gun rights while appointing yourself as ambassador for all gun owners. There is a time and place for everything.

  4. I want to OC because I’ve got a gorgeous holster and I look good wearing it! And because it’s really hot, and I’m really small, making it harder to conceal a real gun without ridiculous amounts of clothing.

    But I’m moving to a non-OC state, so there goes that.

    I really don’t care how people carry. Just don’t be an ass about it.

  5. Bob S. says:

    Sebastian,

    I really agree with is that OC is a poor choice in populated areas looking at it strictly from a tactical point of view, unless you’re carrying in a holster with proper retention and have had some level of retention training.

    I don’t understand this view point.

    Would you also suggest that people don’t appear to notice thugs or criminals (Situational awareness) because tactically it makes more sense to keep that awareness of them secret?

  6. Sage Thrasher says:

    I think the point about “retention training” (not the kind 2-year-olds get [sorry, couldn’t resist]) is that OC doesn’t just attract attention from civilians, it attracts attention from thugs. Even cops have their guns taken. Walking on the street with weapon in a visible holster, especially alone, carries risks not associated with concealed carry.

  7. Bob S. says:

    Sage Thunder,

    Walking on the street with weapon in a visible holster, especially alone, carries risks not associated with concealed carry.

    Help me understand this

    Are you saying that some Openly Carrying a firearm is MORE likely to be a target of criminal action than the same person, same style of dress, same actions carrying concealed?

    How exactly does that work?

    In states with widespread gun ownership and tough punishment for gun misuse, criminals surveyed were often unarmed: 54% in Oklahoma, 62% in Georgia, 40% in Maryland, 43% in Missouri, and 35% in Florida. In Massachusetts, however, only 29% of the felon-respondents were unarmed. In that state, it is difficult lawfully to acquire a firearm, and the illegal carrying of a firearm, rather than the criminal misuse of a gun, is subject to the mandatory penalty. The survey data indicate that the criminals’ fear of an armed victim relates directly to the severity of the gun laws in the state surveyed. Where gun laws are less restrictive, such as Georgia and Maryland, criminals think twice before running the risk of facing an armed victim; they are much less concerned in Massachusetts.

    Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that “A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;” 74% agreed that “One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot.”

    http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?id=117

  8. Bubblehead Les says:

    Hmm. Well, to help Muddy the Waters a bit more, let’s look at something that is the Law about Carrying Firearms.

    In Ohio (where I live, and to only which I will speak), to get a CCW requires going to a Class, getting Training, submitting to a Background Investigation, and paying for a Permit. All this takes several weeks and several hundred dollars.

    To Open Carry, all one needs is a clean Criminal Record (no Felony Convictions, Judge declared you Mentally Incompetant, etc.), be over 21 and a Legal Resident of the State. But you can’t carry in your car.

    But in both OC and CCW, one has to follow the State Law regarding “Signs” on certain Gov’t Property and other Restricted Property (per the Ohio Attorney General’s Office), and one still can’t Drink in Bars (but we can Carry at the end of the Month as long as we don’t imbibe, so one can now go to TGIFridays with the Family).

    But every little hick Burg seems to Freak if one OC’s down their Main Street (not to mention Big Places like Cleveland), yet very seldom does one hear about a CCW Holder doing something wrong.

    Who’da thunk a Jacket over a Gun had so much power over the RKBA? Of course if the 5+ Million Buckeyes who are Eligible would apply for their CCW Permit…..

  9. Sebastian says:

    Bob S:

    There’s several tactical advantages you lose by OCing, for only a small gain in your draw time. Let me paint a few scenarios.

    I’m walking down the street, and approaching me is a gang of “youths.” or a “flash mob,” choose your euphemism. They don’t appear threatening until you’re within striking distance. Think this scenario. If I’m OCing, I’m pretty much relying on the deterrent factor of the gun to prevent them from attacking. If that fails, they are likely going to be able to get the gun if they are determined. They won’t know about a concealed gun, so if you’re unable to respond quickly enough to the attack, there’s a better chance you’re keeping the gun.

    If my gun is carried plainly, I lose the element of surprise. The main place I would not want to lose that is in a robbery. In certain robbery situations, like a convenience store robbery with multiple robbers, my choice might be to not intervene unless things are looking like they are headed south. If I’m OCing, I don’t have that choice. I have to assume they’ll notice I’m armed, and my choice is going to be between intervening and losing the gun.

    I also, to some degree, lose the ability to employ lesser force if lesser force is called for. If I’m being threatened by someone who can plainly see I’m carrying, I have to assume he’s going to make a play for the gun if a scuffle ensues.

    Cops OC, but cops are OCing anyway by virtue of their uniform. People know cops carry guns. I’ve never known a cop that open carries off duty, and detectives, and other plain clothes cops, usually carry concealed as well.

  10. Sebastian says:

    My assumption would be that OC probably reduces your chances of ending up in a confrontation because of the deterrence factor of appearing openly armed. But not all criminals will be deterred, and the consequences if a confrontation does occur and you’re OCing are a lot more serious.

  11. ParatrooperJJ says:

    Actually in Ohio most of the off limits places to CCW are legal to OC (most Government buildings).

  12. David says:

    “I’m walking down the street, and approaching me is a gang of “youths.” or a “flash mob,”

    Crossing the street when you first see them is your best course of action for avoiding confrontation and more importantly confrontation with permanent and serious consequences. Your first move should always be to avoid a violent confrontation, when possible.

  13. mike w. says:

    “A quick google search for “Negative OC encounter” should tell you all you need to know about the armed activists and their antics.”

    Except that those negative encounters are the distinct minority. MOST OC encounters are no big deal and don’t involve the OC’er preaching and being rude and antagonistic.

    also, I’ve seen plenty of LEO’s in Wilmington carrying openly in plainclothes.

  14. Matthew Carberry says:

    If you are carrying your gun in an OWB because it’s comfortable and you draw best from it, and you don’t wear a jacket or shirt over it (or remove them at some point in the day) because it’s hot, then you are “naturally” OC-ing. That’s the biggest reason why both OC and CC should be legal, so we don’t have to be inconvenienced too much by stupid rules in going about our normal daily lives while armed.

    My only problem with “political” carry is the potential for a lone knucklehead to counteract the good, well-thought out PR-wise, plan others might have. At best it’s an unnecessary distraction, at worst it sets the whole movement back, just like in 2A jurisprudence.

  15. Sebastian says:

    I’ve seen plenty of LEO’s in Wilmington carrying openly in plainclothes.

    Our county detectives OC while on duty wearing pretty close to plain clothes. Their “uniform” seems to be khaki’s, with a polo that has the shield embroiders on it. Their holster also displays the badge. I saw a county detective once walking into an eatery. From behind I thought it was someone OCing, until I saw the badge and polo when he was on his way out. I guess that’s sort of plain clothes, but it was fairly obvious he was law enforcement from the front.

  16. Sebastian says:

    MC:

    I get the comfort thing. In hot climates I understand it. But if it were me I’d still want a retention holster and some retention training if I were going to do it. It just seems like a good idea.

  17. Bob S. says:

    Sebastian,

    Let me see if I correctly understand your position

    1. Advantage of surprise

    Are you positing that being on the defensive — having to respond AFTER a criminal has targeted you is a greater advantage than avoiding the confrontation?

    I don’t get that. I am not sure that is your position either but want to be clear,

    Or are you saying that drawing from concealment is somehow better than drawing from an Openly Carried Firearm in the event of a crime?

    Action beats reaction — anything that can reduce the time to complete that action is going to be an advantage right?

    I think any criminal will react to movement — action — whether it is going for an open carry firearm or sweeping a cover garment out of the way.

    If that fails, they are likely going to be able to get the gun if they are determined. They won’t know about a concealed gun, so if you’re unable to respond quickly enough to the attack, there’s a better chance you’re keeping the gun.

    The thugs in the video you referenced didn’t want to rob someone, they wanted to beat that person.

    How does having a hidden firearm that you never draw an advantage in that situation?
    How does having to draw it from concealment give me an advantage when 3 thugs are pounding on me?

    3. The freedom to choose

    You posit not only being caught in a robbery but a robbery with multiple thugs.

    like a convenience store robbery with multiple robbers, my choice might be to not intervene unless things are looking like they are headed south. If I’m OCing, I don’t have that choice.

    Unless you are at the very front of the store or in the middle of the thugs, do you lose the ability to run?

    Do you lose the ability to simply raise your hand and let them take your firearm?

    I would argue there isn’t much difference in a thug stealing my money and buying a firearm and a thug who steals my firearm. I am not responsible for what he does in either case.

    I don’t have that choice. I have to assume they’ll notice I’m armed, and my choice is going to be between intervening and losing the gun.

    Again, that is a very binary solution set and completely ignores the possibility of evading or escaping. In watching many videos of store robberies, very few make any attempt to control the other customers. I would be interested in seeing any evidence to the contrary.

    4. Inability to use lesser force

    I also, to some degree, lose the ability to employ lesser force if lesser force is called for.

    I also disagree with this one. In fact, I would argue that the opposite could be the case. IF the thugs notice the firearm, wouldn’t their attention be focused on it and not the less than lethal measure you may also be carrying?

    Focusing on the presence of the firearm may give them tunnel vision to the point a physical, non-firearm assault is unexpected.

    Just because you are carrying a firearm does not mean you have to draw it right? Isn’t that what you argue, why you support carrying less than lethal measures also?

    People know cops carry guns. I’ve never known a cop that open carries off duty, and detectives, and other plain clothes cops, usually carry concealed as well.

    Come to Texas and try to carry concealed when it is 110 degrees. You’ll see a large number of officers who Openly Carry in plains clothes.

  18. Sebastian says:

    My position is there are situations you could end up in where intervention is not necessarily the smart move. If you’re openly armed, you’re not going to have a choice of whether to intervene or not, because you are advertising the presence of a gun.

    If three armed robbers walk into a McDonalds, intervention is not going to be my first choice. I’m outnumbered and probably outgunned. If they hit the registers and get out, I’ll be a good witness for police. If I’m OCing, I’m not going to have that choice. Either I’m going to have to draw and shoot, or or risk losing the gun at best, and my life at worst.

    Even if the robbery ended in a hostage situation, say as police closed in, I’m not going to have the advantage of choosing the right time to intervene. Even if I’m sitting down, or have a means to cover after the fact, I run the risk that someone who saw me armed coming in is going to force my hand by blabbing.

  19. Sebastian says:

    I also disagree with this one. In fact, I would argue that the opposite could be the case. IF the thugs notice the firearm, wouldn’t their attention be focused on it and not the less than lethal measure you may also be carrying?

    Maybe. But I’m not going to take that chance. I’d rather the thug’s attention not be on my gun while my attention isn’t on my gun, but on employing another weapon.

    Just because you are carrying a firearm does not mean you have to draw it right?

    I offer the potential attacker a verbal warning to stay back. Instead of staying back he continues forward. This would normally be where I’m drawing spray, and getting looking for exits. If I’m carrying concealed, I can reasonably assume he isn’t coming toward me with an intention to grab the gun. I can employ a LTL weapon without having to prepare to retain my gun. If I’m OCing, and he’s continuing forward, despite the verbal warning, I need to be prepared to draw or retain. If you decide to draw, and it turns out the guy is unarmed, you’re going to have some explaining to do. If you shoot him, you’re going to have 100,000 worth of explaining to do through an attorney, and hopefully not end up in jail for manslaughter.

    Come to Texas and try to carry concealed when it is 110 degrees. You’ll see a large number of officers who Openly Carry in plains clothes.

    I’ve carried in 110 degrees concealed before without much of a problem.

  20. MikeSilver says:

    OCing here in Georgia has made a BIG POSITIVE impact.

    3 years ago Georgia reduced the extent of the off-limits locations. For the first time in 75 years, we were able to carry in a restaurants that served alcohol.

    GeorgiaCarry.Org members celebrated by meeting at an Atlanta restaurant. Everyone was opening carrying. It was shown on TV on several stations, along with the required blood in the streets meme.

    Those news reports spawned more people to OC in more places. At first, the cops were hostile and harassed gun owners. After alot of positive ambassadorship by OC’ers and several letters and lawsuits by GeorgiaCarry.Org, a sea change has occurred.

    Now, people are reporting non-event encounters with Law Enforcement, ie the cop saw the gun and didn’t say a word.

    I should also mention that Georgia last year removed the prohibition from drinking and carrying. That was due to restaurant owners lifting their objections when they saw responsible paying customer’s OCing.

    OCing, done right, advances the cause. Every OCer needs to remember they are an Ambassador. Dress nice, be polite, and leave without arguing when you are asked too.

  21. DirtCrashr says:

    Welcome to California, thank you for joining us.
    We used-to be OC-only and “may-issue” where political favors reigned, with a few of the Outback counties almost shall-issue – but now it’s mostly neither. OC’ing got too popular among the Starbucks crowd and alarmed the ninny soccer-moms who called their friends in Legislatariat who quickly drummed up a bill (AB 144) to kill it entirely, state-wide.
    Now, even though in remote locations and under-served counties it’s still essentially the California of 1849 the blanket ruling awaits Governor Moonbeam’s signature.
    We’ll have to see how we extricate ourselves from the mess, now that you can do NEITHER…

  22. Bob S. says:

    Sebastian,

    Isn’t it reaching a little far to deliberately position your mythical Open Carrier in a place where he can’t react other than drawing or surrender?

    In your scenarios, you don’t mention escaping although that seems more likely even in your McDonald’s scenario.

    Most of the time, a person is either going to be in a booth/away from the main entrances and not trapped at the counter as armed robbers burst in.

    If you’re openly armed, you’re not going to have a choice of whether to intervene or not, because you are advertising the presence of a gun.

    Again I disagree. You don’t have to draw or not. You can put your hands up and allow the thugs to proceed. Unless you are saying that thugs are automatically going to shot anyone they see that is armed.

    I’m just not buying that. I don’t see evidence to support your position.

    Either I’m going to have to draw and shoot, or or risk losing the gun at best, and my life at worst.

    Again…if I lose the firearm or my money in which thugs use to buy a firearm…what moral difference?

    Is the slight possibility of being caught in that position worth giving up the advantage of a faster draw and/or greater chances of avoidance?

    If I’m carrying concealed, I can reasonably assume he isn’t coming toward me with an intention to grab the gun.

    If a person is coming toward me after being warned off, I’m not going to assume that he is after my firearm even if I’m Openly Carrying. I’m going to assume that he means harm to me.
    How does assuming he is just out to disarm me make any sense?

    . If I’m OCing, and he’s continuing forward, despite the verbal warning, I need to be prepared to draw or retain. If you decide to draw, and it turns out the guy is unarmed, you’re going to have some explaining to do.

    How does this change if I’m carrying concealed?

    If I’m carrying concealed I have to make the same choices don’t it?

    If I draw on someone, whether or not it is concealed, it will be in defense of my person !!
    I’m 48 years old with bad knees, allergies and asthma — I’m not an MMA fighter with Mall ninja moves.

    Are you advocating a person carrying concealed take a beating instead of drawing on an unarmed person?

    . Even if I’m sitting down, or have a means to cover after the fact, I run the risk that someone who saw me armed coming in is going to force my hand by blabbing.

    And anyone who saw you drive up in a nice car, pay with a credit card or wad of cash could rat you out also. Again….how likely is another bystander going to actively assist a thug?

  23. Sebastian says:

    Most of the time, a person is either going to be in a booth/away from the main entrances and not trapped at the counter as armed robbers burst in.

    True, but most of the time the place won’t get robbed. I carry as insurance, to deal with an unlikely event that if it happened could result in a catastrophic loss. I don’t see any reason to reduce my options in the event it happens.

    Again I disagree. You don’t have to draw or not. You can put your hands up and allow the thugs to proceed. Unless you are saying that thugs are automatically going to shot anyone they see that is armed.

    If they see the gun, they are going to take it. They’d be foolish not to. If they are intent on killing people to eliminate witnesses, you’ll be the first. I don’t see a scenario where you throw up your hands and you don’t end up disarmed or dead, unless they are really stupid robbers, or just don’t notice (a possibility)

    How does this change if I’m carrying concealed?

    Because you can be reasonably certain the person is unaware you’re armed.

    If I’m carrying concealed I have to make the same choices don’t it?

    If the person approaching you, I won’t call him an attacker yet, doesn’t know you’re armed, you can be reasonably sure that the reason he’s approaching you isn’t to try to try to grab the gun.

    If I draw on someone, whether or not it is concealed, it will be in defense of my person !! I’m 48 years old with bad knees, allergies and asthma — I’m not an MMA fighter with Mall ninja moves.

    If you draw on someone who’s unarmed, you’re probably going to trial. That’s why I like carrying a LTL option. It’s a low level of force that’s basically a step above harsh language. You’re unlikely to be looking at jail time if you employ it legitimately, and even if you’re in a grey area, it’s misdemeanor assault at worst. It can be used pretty early in the confrontation. Now if the guy pulls a weapon, all bets are off. Go for the gun. But I’d suggest unless you’re elderly, your chances of claiming a force disparity against a single unarmed opponents are slim. I’ve even seen cases where DA’s take someone who shoot at multiple unarmed attackers to trial.

    Are you advocating a person carrying concealed take a beating instead of drawing on an unarmed person?

    It’s your choice. Just in my jurisdiction, if you draw a gun on someone who’s unarmed, you’re going to trial, and will probably be convicted. Personally, I would not shoot someone who didn’t draw a weapon on me. For someone wanting to fist fight me, I’ll spray and run.

  24. David says:

    “I’m 48 years old with bad knees, allergies and asthma — I’m not an MMA fighter with Mall ninja moves.”

    Then a gun is not going to help you. If you want to see how you’ll shoot under stress, try this. Sprint 200 yards, then when your heart is pounding try to draw and place three shots on the torso of a man sized target at 10 yards in 5 seconds. Remember, anything not hitting the torso target is potentially hitting someone bystander who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time you decided to shoot.

    Now add in that the target could be moving and shooting back and you’ll see just how tough it is. I laughed at this at first. Then I saw how poorly everyone in my class did with this drill.

    This is the reality of carrying a gun for self defense. Going to the range and hitting static targets under ideal conditions is not training, and anyone who says that it is; is someone who is lying to themselves and lying you.

  25. Bob S. says:

    David,

    Then a gun is not going to help you

    BUNK!

    Sorry to be blunt but anything else is not expressing my full sentiment.

    There is a world if difference between being in shape enough to take on multiple, probably younger, opponents who are used to physical violence and being in shape enough to put rounds on target under stress.

    By your reasoning, wouldn’t it stand that anyone incapable of sprinting 200 yards should be denied the right to carry a firearm?

  26. DirtCrashr says:

    Oh yeh, the only Open Carry I was talking about that’s allowed in CA is UNLOADED… And now it’s not allowed.

  27. mike says:

    Blah blah blah.. All you have to do is link to the latest blowup from the OC crowd in California. They may have cost everyone over there their right to even unloaded carry. Surely it will head to the courts if that happens and they may (!) prevail. But meanwhile some folks will have to go unarmed, and money will be tied up fighting to retain something they had instead of strengthening their rights.

    If they lose, my only hope is that none of those OC extremists moves to greener pastures and starts scaring more soccer moms. Predictably, it doesn’t turn out too well.

  28. mike says:

    Actually, if they beat it, I still pray that those OC extremists stay put in California and play Gears of War or whatever it is they do when they’re not out trying to convince people to restrict their rights.

  29. David says:

    I think you’re missing this Bob, you’re whining about all your health problems at just 48 years old. I’d love to see you get your heartbeat up to 150 beats per minute (without a heart attack) under stress and see just how you perform. I hear all the time from untrained range commandos all about how they’d drop that guy with 2 the chest and 1 the head. Even well trained people perform poorly in stressful situations, and even worse when you have something shooting back at you as a PRISm simulator does. Tunnel vision, a loss of auditory function, unsteady hands… all these things happen under stress. Couple that with real world conditions and those missed targets become collateral damage, a store clerk who catches one of your bullets, a bullet that sails two block after exiting the stores front window.

    There is a whole world of OC gurus out there who shoot a few hundred rounds a year under ideal conditions and they think that is adequate training. It’s always easy when your target is standing still and lighting is bright without a glare. Have you tried shooting on the move, while shooting at a moving target? Have you tried shooting while laying on your belly? How about in the dark or low light, while having to distinguish between friend or foe? Have you tried shooting underneath objects from a kneeing position? These are all things the range commandos ignore as being practical.

    I don’t know why it is, people seem to eschew formal training or the kind of practice that simulates real world situational shooting. Hell, just shooing two or three IDPA events a year is better practice than most people do. LCCC offers a great concealed carry course. Personally I’m not a big fan of the instructor, but he’s knowledgeable and puts on a good class. In his class you’ll find out what you don’t know and what you can’t do.

  30. Sage Thrasher says:

    Sebastian said: “…I’d rather the thug’s attention not be on my gun while my attention isn’t on my gun…”

    That in a nutshell is why I prefer concealed carry–you are less likely to attract attention to yourself while going about your business. I don’t have a problem with others OC’ing & certainly don’t want it restricted. There are certain times, like a quick drive to deposit money at night after closing shop, where OC might even be the better deterrent. However, OC’ing will attract attention, and some will be negative, even criminal. When you have a gun on your hip you are advertising loud & clear that you have something worth stealing, which invites a robbery as well as pissing contests with a certain type of individual. Any two reasonably fit guys working together can figure out how to distract & mug a single victim walking down any street in the world, regardless of how he’s armed. For me, especially in a crowded urban environment, OC’ing is like putting a target on your back.

  31. Precision says:

    @Dirt Crashr

    It is true that most of California now cannot OC (an unloaded gun). The truth of that situation is that it will LIKELY force the courts to make the CA legislature institute a shall issue program. The only reason that wasn’t done previously was because “OC (sorta) was legal”. Now that the legislature has “fixed” that loophole, things should get interesting in CA in the next 12-18 months.

    Hopefully the moral will be, sometimes you have to lose a little to gain a lot / gun banners lose it all when they get greedy.

  32. DirtCrashr says:

    Things have been “interesting” in California all my life! :-) The current Governor is especially *intersting*- and a native Californian, not a Euro-transplant with some maid-boogie baggage they can lever against him.

  33. pax says:

    I’m a supporter of OC, including (especially including!) political OC. It’s just a gun, people. Get over it. ;)

    I also agree with Sebastian: if you choose to OC in crowded areas, you should have a retention holster and at least a minimum amount of training in how to keep control of the firearm if someone tries to take it away from you. That’s “should” as in “I choose to voluntarily do this smart thing,” not “should” as in “There Oughtta Be a Law.” There ought not be such a law. But I think smart people should voluntarily do this much for themselves.

    Without good equipment and at least a little know-how, OC becomes almost like walking around with five one-hundred dollar bills pinned outside your back pocket. Sure, most people wouldn’t grab for the bills. But some would think about it, and maybe one or two would try it. Wouldn’t it be nice to have the ability to deal with it if they did?

    Still, it’s your $500 and your life. Harms no one, do as you will.

  34. Jdude says:

    I oc for political purposes. My intent is normalization and occasionally answering questions about guns and the local laws. Based on the people I’ve talked to, I believe I’ve had a net positive effect.

  35. mike says:

    OCing for political purposes is brilliant. Just ask the geniuses in California.

  36. Jdude says:

    “Let’s not do something because someone might ban it!”

    I’m not going to avoid doing things because some blissninny might become frightened.

    I am going to continue having a net positive effect on the RKBA through the normalization and exchanged pleasantries that have worked just fine so far. Then again, I don’t snappily retort “because it’s my right!” when someone asks me about my gun.

    It opens a door to a conversation. That conversation can go any which way. If I have a say in the matter, it is going to go pleasantly and with someone a bit more educated and having a positive perspective on the subject. :)
    -Jdude

  37. David says:

    “I am going to continue having a net positive effect on the RKBA through the normalization and exchanged pleasantries that have worked just fine so far.”

    The problem is that is the experience is in your mind, not what’s really going on. You self appointed ambassadors are more of a problem then you are a help, running around handing out your flyers full of nonsense for a BS forum full of nitwits with short tempers, quick tongues, and arm chair legal knowledge.

    Your poorly planned actions, and events do nothing to further gun rights. You’re an uncoordinated, unfocused, leaderless movement that is pissing off gun owners, store owners, people on the street, and just about everyone else.

  38. Jdude says:

    Flyers? Sir, I have no flyers. That seems a bit rude to the recipient and… impersonal.

    Perhaps I was unclear earlier. I should clarify – I open carry as a preferred carry method, with a positive social benefit.

    The conversations are pretty simple, and are ALWAYS initiated by the other person. I don’t point out my gun. I’ve never been to an open carry rally or dinner. I just carry about my normal business, and occasionally people ask me questions. Here’s the usual example:

    Curious person: “Is that a gun?”
    Jdude: Yes it is. I’m Jdude *shakes hand*
    Curious: “Is that legal?”
    Jdude: Very brief overview that amounts more or less to “yes sir”
    Curious: “But nothing is going to happen here, so why would you need it?”
    Jdude “You know, I think you are right. We probably won’t have anything happen here. If I thought something was going to happen, I’d call the police.”

    At this point people like to tell me gun stories of their own, usually about a friend who has guns.

    I usually conclude with “I’m going to the range this saturday. If you’d like, you are welcome to come along, I’ll teach you a bit about gun safety and we’ll shoot some. Bring a friend if you’d like.”

    If the experience in my mind is different from the experience people have, then so be it. I’ve had several takers who actually went to the range with me.
    I don’t use their time as an ultra conservative bitch session, I don’t tell them about alex jones and glenn beck, I take them shooting. We shoot. And that’s it.

    And it seems to work damn well.

    Do you disagree?

  39. Bob S. says:

    David,

    Are you MikeB302000 in disguise?

    You have a problem with anyone who hasn’t taken the appropriate level of training.

    Of course you don’t back up your statement that “I’d love to see you get your heartbeat up to 150 beats per minute (without a heart attack) under stress and see just how you perform.” affects the outcome of defensive gun uses.

    You simply can not understand the difference in stating reality (I am 48, I have bad knees, I have allergies and asthma and unable to go hand to hand with multiple opponents with expectation of success) with whining.

    Now you have a problem with people who Open Carrying —

    The problem is that is the experience is in your mind, not what’s really going on. You self appointed ambassadors are more of a problem then you are a help, running around handing out your flyers full of nonsense for a BS forum full of nitwits with short tempers, quick tongues, and arm chair legal knowledge.

    Apparently in addition to your other powers you are omniscient and know exactly how every conversation or dialog about Open Carry goes.

    I stand amazed that you know how those conversations go. I am agog at the fact, without knowing me or the rest of my conditioning program, you can still tell that I’m a lousy shot under stressful conditions.

    I’m sure you are out running marathons when you aren’t cranking out 10,000 push ups a day and sending 2,000+ rounds of ammo down range under real life conditions.

    The discussion between Sebastian and I was simple — does the advantages of Open Carry out weigh the risks.

    I see how you added nothing to the discussion.

  40. mike says:

    @Jdude:
    I think I might take my AR15 to the local playground this weekend to clean it. That will open a door to conversations, help normalize guns, and I believe that it will have a new positive effect on the RKBA movement. My actions will obviously be beneficial to all gun owners, and all gun owners should appreciate my noble cause.

    That’s how you sound, although I write this realizing that you may not even understand what’s wrong with the preceding paragraph.

  41. David says:

    “I’m sure you are out running marathons when you aren’t cranking out 10,000 push ups a day and sending 2,000+ rounds of ammo down range under real life conditions.”

    Funny you should use this exact phrase. Yes, I do run marathons. 3:06 being my PR. I’ve even finished four 50 milers, with 8 hours being my PR. Also finished Boston Marathon twice (only non-olympic marathon to require qualifying for entry).

    This year I’ve fired, as of Sunday, 9158 live rounds – this includes Steel shoots, IDPA, and USPSA.

    Yes, I do have a problem with people who think formal training is for chumps and practice is 100 rounds once a quarter. I think people who buy a firearms and carry a firearm for defense under the the guise of “I’m in poor physical condition and this will protect me” are headed for disaster. Some of these OC idiots are so fat I have to wonder how they even wipe their own asses, let alone manipulate a firearm.

    Your reality and your using your health problems as excuses are whining. Bad knees, usually a code word for 100 lbs over weight and my knees are giving out 30 years early. Asthma, code word for my heart is starving for O2 because my arteries are thick from years of eating poorly so I’ll call it asthma and write it off.

    You only need to go as far as Google to find 1000’s of negative OC encounters. People fighting with store owners when they were asked to leave. People who don’t seem to see a problem with OC’ing while throwing down shots of Jack Daniels. Every Pro OC forum is filled with stupid people doing stupid stuff in the name of gun rights and then taking stupidity to a new level and bragging about it.

  42. mike w. says:

    Wow, David, there always has to be one person with a condescending attitude who just ruins it for everyone

  43. Matthew Carberry says:

    C’mon mike w,

    You know as well as I do that of the 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year all involved by definition must have had multiple hi-level gunfighting courses under their belts and were near-Olympic level athletes as well.

    The septa to octo-genarians you often read about in NRA’s “Armed Citizen” column? Former Olympians and/or Special Forces cadre to a one.

    I mean, they used their firearms to survive and win right?

  44. breda says:

    I would just LOVE to hear David’s thoughts on women and firearms.

  45. Matthew Carberry says:

    I actually have little problem with the Cali activists. Most were polite and professional in dealing with LE and most had zero option of carrying concealed even if they wanted to.

    They simply chose to carry in the only manner available, the stupid response of the Legislature wasn’t their fault in the sense of “doing something wrong while open-carrying”.

    In any event, part of the politics of them carrying was in fact to force the issue on CCW. They have to deal with some short-term sacrifice to (probably) get something better than unloaded OC (loaded OC was almost certainly off the table in any sort of short term).

  46. Jennifer says:

    Wow, David. Lots of condescension and assumption there. I happen to know BobS, and no, he does not fit your description. I’m sure the Adonis description you provide of yourself is similarly accurate. And good for you for being such a fine physical specimen. Not everyone is in that position. I would argue that those with obvious infirmities need a gun far more than you would. They look like easy targets.
    As far as open carry goes, I think we should have the option. It has its pros and cons and each individual should weigh those accordingly rather than have it dictated by the state.

  47. Sebastian says:

    I don’t think you need to be a super tactical ninja to be able to successful employ a gun in self-defense. But I do think that more training is better than less, and would agree that there plenty of people out there carrying guns that could use more training. I’d consider myself one of them.

  48. mike w. says:

    “I would just LOVE to hear David’s thoughts on women and firearms.”

    Or people with disabilities, the wheelchair bound, etc. etc., who own and carry firearms.

    That said, Sebastian is right. More training is a good thing.

  49. Jdude says:

    @mike: Your comments are in quotes, mine are without

    “That’s how you sound, although I write this realizing that you may not even understand what’s wrong with the preceding paragraph.”
    I’ll go ahead and disregard this as the hubris of anonymity :)

    “I think I might take my AR15 to the local playground this weekend to clean it. That will open a door to conversations, help normalize guns, and I believe that it will have a new positive effect on the RKBA movement.”

    A refresher on 18 U.S.C. §921(25) may be in order, mike. Most people don’t violate federal law out of hand.
    If I may guess, I would suspect you dislike open carry in any form. It works for me, people ask me about it, and I invite them to try in a safe place. See, mike, we are ambassadors wherever we go and whatever we do, wether we like it or not.
    Hence, if one is going to open carry, he is immediately an ambassador to open carry. Said individual should conduct himself with professionalism and aplomb.
    I open carry as a matter of course. Therefore I recognize that I am an ambassador for the subject. My actions and professionalism prohibit me from questioning the “ability [of others] to understand” and dismissing them with rudeness.

    “My actions will obviously be beneficial to all gun owners, and all gun owners should appreciate my noble cause.”

    I’m okay if someone doesn’t like what I do. Did you skip over the part where I have taken people shooting? Conservatives, liberals, ultra religious, outright hippies – doesn’t matter. I take people shooting, tell them about shooting, and have fun shooting. I’ve changed minds, I’ve made people more accepting of shooting, and I’ve taught people how to be safe.

    That’s how I support the Second Amendment and the open carry movement.

    If you find flaw in that, say it. I welcome constructive criticism. Use simple words, lest I “not even understand what’s wrong with [your writings]”.

    Thank you :)
    -Jdude

  50. Linoge says:

    Damn, David… if you made any more baseless assumptions and nonsensical, bigotry-driven “arguments”, you would be pretty much indistinguishable from an “gun control” extremist… at least in form, if not function.

    And for the sake of forthrightness, I am an open carrier, I generally go out of my way to be polite and respectful at all times regardless of whether I am armed in any fashion or not, I have never had a quantifiably negative experience while openly carrying, and I am 6’2″, 170lbs, and could not run a marathon if an entire country of zombies was on my ass. Funny how my one counterpoint pokes holes in 75% of your stereotypes…

  51. mike says:

    JDude, the only kind of open carry I have a problem with is the kind where folks decide it will be a good idea it’s a good idea to descend on coffee shops in droves with guns on their hips for to get a reaction, as they did in California. As you may remember, the first coffee chain they did that to immediately banned the practice. So they went to Starbucks and started freaking out their customers too.

    You think this behavior is A-okay, I think it’s terribly counter-productive. Especially for OCers not involved, but who liked to shop at the first coffee shop. Soon, it may be a huge inconvenience for all CA OCers. If normalization was the goal, then these folks clearly don’t know what normal is. People who are indifferent to guns and then confronted with a large group of extremists OCing will most likely not come away thinking great things about them or about OCing. Proof of this is the public outcry from people just trying to have a cup of coffee.

    The problem is that some people are so disconnected that they don’t understand how their actions actually affect other people. If you can’t understand why such a display would upset people, then you are disconnected. If, after such a display, the place you gathered immediately bans any further displays and you don’t understand why, then you’re disconnected. If you then continue to do the same thing at other shops that haven’t banned the behavior yet, you’re probably delusional. I think some of these guys are so disconnected, delusional, and quite frankly, toxic, that they’re a danger to our rights.

    I’m not against OC, not at all. But I am against stupidity. Which is not to say I think such actions should be outlawed. I do think they should be condemned though. I haven’t checked on Calguns lately, but I’m curious what the consensus is over there. I wonder if they think the actors are heroes or idiots. I imagine that may hinge on the outcome in the legislature and the courts. In my view, the best they can hope for is lucky idiots.

  52. Bob S. says:

    Mike,

    So they went to Starbucks and started freaking out their customers too.

    And Starbucks promptly made a statement — in the face of protests by the anti-rights cultists — that they would simply follow the applicable state laws.

    Now which company looks unreasonable and willing to alienate customers the most?

    I’m guessing it isn’t Starbucks.

    You think this behavior is A-okay, I think it’s terribly counter-productive.

    I ask for evidence instead of thoughts. Is there any verifiable data to show that such activities are counter-productive?

    I can tell you what happens here in Texas (I know, I know — We are backwards here, no Open Carry – that is the point). — When the news stations carry the breathless — OH MY GAWD People are carrying guns in STORES, I get to have conversations with people who don’t know the law.

    While there can be some negative impact, don’t just focus on that.

    Many people nation wide learned that Open Carry was legal in California and many other states — all because of those protests you decry.

  53. mike says:

    “Is there any verifiable data to show that such activities are counter-productive?”

    The most dramatic would be the bill outlawing OC in CA, and private businesses who, unlike Starbucks, chose to prohibit OC in response to these stunts. Surely you’re aware of these? Or do you think OC publicity stunts leading to laws that outlaw OC aren’t counter-productive. The doublethink some of you guys use is almost unbearable.

  54. Kermit says:

    Well, THAT was certainly a mess of much rhetoric to dig through. A few points to note (A through C address issues Sebastian raised, broken down along my thought processes. D and E are addressed at David and Mike, respectively):

    A) Weapon retention training. I had retention training at a certain Major Reputable Law Enforcement Academy, and currently work in that field. “Retention from Holster,” as I was trained, is quite simple, consisting of placing your hand on top of the pistol as it’s in the holster, and pushing down. It’s MUCH harder to take a pistol from a holster when you’re throwing your upper body into it. I’m not the largest or strongest man, yet with one arm I can effectively hold my gun in place against a larger, stronger opponent who’s using both hands. Carry a pocketknife? You have two hands; while Joe Thug’s trying to get your gun, use your other hand and stick him. Or use your keys, or your pen, or your fist on his face, or his neck, or his genitals, or other soft spot of opportunity; if he’s trying to take your gun, you can assume he means to kill you. If you’re pushing down on the firearm with a “drawing” grasp, well, as soon as the pressure lets up and you get a chance, you have the option of drawing and firing, and hey!, you already have a shooting grip. Retention from holster really isn’t difficult.

    Weapons retention once the weapon is drawn is a different matter and moot to this discussion, as a drawn pistol, once in the hand, is no different for CC than for OC.

    B) Targeting by criminals due to visible gun. No sane criminal is going to select someone they -know- is carrying a gun. Having the pistol visible announces the fact that you’re not an easy mark. It lets the crook know, “This guy has the means at hand to kill me if I attack.” Having aborted a mugging of myself and my mother in a parking lot one night, by simple expedient of -reaching- for my (concealed) gun, never drawing or even displaying it, I’m reassured that yes, criminals DO look for this sort of thing, and reject a victim selection that appears to possess the means of fighting back. Had either of us been openly carrying, I doubt Joe Thug would have even tried to approach us.

    C) Ease of draw. With my duty holster, it is -quite- possible to draw and fire three or four rounds inside of two seconds. I’m doing good just to get the gun out from concealment in that time frame. Going back to training, I HAVE practiced both methods, and while I’m no Johnny Ninja On The Draw, I like to think I’ve got a -reasonable- time to draw and fire from either method of carry. Given, however, that this is part of my job to practice, and that many/most people do NOT practice drawing very often, would it not make sense to allow them any advantage possible, the better to save their own lives, and those of their loved ones? Remember, in our hypothetical situation on the street, the thug(s) will likely already have their weapon(s) selected and ready at-hand, be it another pistol, a knife, a bottle, bat, brick, or even their own fists. Wherever whatever weapons we have are sequestered, we’re already at a disadvantage. To me, it makes sense to minimize that disadvantage as much as possible; holsters in open view are, by nature, such a way to so minimize this.

    If Concealed-Carry Only was the best option, strategically or tactically, no cop would have a gun visible -ever-. And outside of law enforcement, who have to routinely deal with criminals at arms-length or less, I’ve not heard of anyone having their gun stolen from their holster, concealed or open. If there are such reports out there, I’d like to know the details, and how many; to date, though, I know of no non-cops who’ve lost their guns from their own holster in a fistfight or mugging.-

    D) I’m wondering if this “David” is David Worstechowsky, or however he spells his last name. He’s been a troll on cop-blogs for years, and if this is indeed, the same “David,” well, he’s an idiot, and I’d doubt he’d ever fired more than a magazine of ammunition in his life.

    If he’s NOT, then, David, you have my apology for mentally connecting you with that troll. However, I do have some unkind words for you, which would in short, sum up to your being an ass.

    First off, most people do not have the luxury of running marathons or exercising as often as you claim to do. Many people have physical ailments, injuries, handicaps, or outright disabilities, any or all of which would preclude their ability to last in a hands-only fight with a thug in less than half the physical shape you claim to possess. Firearms are often called “great equalizers”; this is, in fact, what they do. A 9mm in the hands of my 5′-something mother with arthritis in her arms and a bad back gives her means to defend herself against the 220-lb 6’4″ muscle-bound thug attacking her. By your “standard” of “training,” she should not carry a firearm, as she is less “physically able” than you, or I. Or take my father, who has good joints, but heart problems and shortness of breath – he’d not last 30 seconds in a fight. Hand him a .45, and he doesn’t have to; he can survive, and fend off his attacker(s). For both my parents, it is not a matter of “whining,” but the sheer, simple fact that even I, at 5’6″, 140 lbs, and skinny, could literally kill them both with my bare hands, probably at the same time. How the hell do you think they’d fare against someone fresh out of prison? How -dare- you condemn them to helpless cowering in the face of violence, or death, when the means of defense are common and available? Thus, point number one that you are an ass.

    Point number two. You are an arrogant ass, looking for a fight. You started off the entire comment thread with an ad-hominem attack against an entire movement, an entire idea and ideal, grouping all of us into your tidy little niche, where you can classify us all as “rabid extremists” ( I believe you referred to us as “militants,” and “the armed activists and their antics”), and therefore dismiss anything further we have to say as coming from a blemished source, and unreliable. From the word go, you’ve attempted to shoe-horn us into your little cubbyhole, and then labeled us “whiners” when we presented you with facts and reasoning, not trollish rhetoric. But, since you seemed to so want us to blow up at you, so you could get your “lulz” or whatever term you trolls use these days, here you are.

    David, I name thee “arrogant ass” and “troll.” However, unlike your comment about “militants” and “antics,” maligning an entire movement, an entire group of wildly different people, I believe my barb at you is supported by specific evidence, helpfully provided by your own little, trollish, self.

    E) To Mike. I do understand your concern, with regards to carry being banned/prohibited altogether and outright, as a “knee-jerk” reaction to OC. While this can be a very real concern, borne up by similar reactions to concealed-carry laws passing, let me rebut, and hopefully ease your concern. In Texas, when they passed their CC law (and they have no OC at all), the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued. Lots of places put up “no guns” signs. Some of them actually looked up the proper signage, and posted that. But after more than ten years of nothing happening, no blood running in the gutters, no shootouts at stoplights, the signs started coming down. Lots of folks initially opposed, some steadfastly, have rethought, reneged, and even went out to get their own pistol and CC license. It takes time for societal changes to work.
    As to the legal issue, I’m pretty fair certain that, eventually, California’s prohibition will be struck down as unconstitutional. It may take a while, as the only thing to change more slowly than society is the court system, but I can see it coming; it HAS come in a great many places. The state I live in has open carry enshrined in its state constitution. We’re up to four states now that require no permit for ANY manner of carry. Forty-nine of fifty states have some form of carry, be it open or concealed, with or without a license, shall-issue or may-issue; only one state prohibits any carry whatsoever, and they’ve come close in the past couple years to joining the flock.
    In short, Mike, we’re winning, slowly but surely.

    Sebastian, apologies for the mega-rant here. If I’m out of line, or if you think this will further feed the trolls, please delete my comment, or if you’re so inclined, edit out my response to David.

  55. counsel says:

    Let me make this simple….

    I have the right to carry, and I think the REASON I carry is irrelevant. The reason is only relevant if someone doesn’t want everyone to carry. Think about it…

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