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How Long Did It Take for the Cops to Get There?

Police and other first responders arrived on scene about 20 minutes after the first calls.” Can someone explain to me how a magazine ban is going to matter worth a damn?

I’m not as fast as Joe, but over the course of twenty minutes, even 10 reloads (that’s 100 rounds) is not going to amount to more than 1/40th of that time. The problem isn’t that these guys don’t have time to reload.

UPDATE: I keep thinking about 20 minutes in my head, and how long a period of time that is. It’s just mind blowing. Did we learn nothing from Columbine about needing a fast and immediate response? The murderer could have taken a break for a cigarette and a beer, let alone a handful of magazine changes, or loading up a second gun.

20 Responses to “How Long Did It Take for the Cops to Get There?”

  1. Ken Rihanek says:

    Tueller Drill. An attacker (defender) can cover 21 feet in 1.5s If you are reloading I have an opportunity to restrain you before you can get another shot off. Not expecting 100% guaranteed solution, just an opening to change the situation.

    Not that I support standard capacity magazine bans. But how do you address this arguement?

    • Rob Crawford says:

      1) You don’t have to wait for a reload to tackle the attacker.

      2) What makes anyone believe someone who has decided to commit mass murder won’t get their hands on illegal magazines? This guy killed his mother to get weapons.

    • Boyd says:

      Ken, the argument that we need a magazine ban because of school shootings is specious and would be ineffective. That’s really all you should need. Not many people believe the Tueller drill, that’s why it’s a dramatic addition to basic handgun courses. Also Tueller doesn’t end in restraining, it normally ends in a jugular slash. Restraining someone is -more- complicated, and folks familiar with Tueller have probably thought about how to prevent that slash.
      I personally would be hard pressed to watch an active shooter at 21 feet or less, wait for his reload (you know, assuming that he’s not perforating -me-, as I “wait”) and then charge in with an edged weapon. As an exercise, maybe. As an addition to this afternoons stop at the mall?

      • Boyd says:

        “specious” because “gun control” causes the school shooting problem. The answer (not how I would “address the problem” in a forum where I didn’t know my audience maybe, but the actual answer) is freedom.

        Teachers and Principals should be freed from the oppressive laws that advertise the defenseless nature of schools. We don’t have to require teachers “pack heat”, we don’t have to make principals attend 100 hours of hot range training a year, we need to restore their freedom to meet the responsibility we heap on them however they see fit.

  2. Paul L. says:

    It will be even longer before the Police reach the victims as they will setup a perimeter.

    Capt. Robert Vignola acknowledged that a half-hour passed between the time police first learned of the break-in, and the time they saw the two accused murderers, Steven Hayes, 47, and Joshua Komisarjevsky, 30, run out of the house, get into the Petit’s car, and try to escape. It was only then that police noticed the house was on fire.

    Vignola said there was no sign of activity inside when police arrived, and that they set up a perimeter around the Petit house, in accordance with standard procedure. He said that if he had known what was going on inside, “I would have been the first one through that door,”

    • J says:

      I am not a LEO but my understanding is that that tactic has changed. The police realize that time is of the essence and will immediately breach in a situation like this, rather than cordon and wait for back up.

      • Harold says:

        You’re right, but that happened long before this crime; that department didn’t get the memo/isn’t exactly filled with brave leaders.

  3. In active shooter incidents the standard procedure is for the first officers to enter the building and find and stop the shooter as soon as possible. That change was a result of the Columbine incident where a perimeter was set first, which contributed to more deaths.

  4. dustydog says:

    Tueller drill raises a concern that when your gun is in a holster, perhaps with the safety on or no round chambered, that you don’t have quite enough time to draw your gun, or draw and make ready.

    Pistol in hand already saves time. There was an early report that the Fort Hood shooter, Nidal Malik Hasan, was taken down only after his gun jammed, but the later news accounts say he was shot 5 times first, and disarmed only after he collapsed.

    A reasonable rule of thumb – if active duty soldiers can’t Tueller drill-and-disarm an active shooter, it is unlikely that anyone else will.

  5. RedHat says:

    I don’t understand the 20 minutes: we live way out in the middle of Nowhere, OK, but are 15 minutes away with any MWAG 911 call.

    20 minutes for an active shooter MWAG at a public school makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL, especially in suburban Conn.

    The two questions are

    a) how did a man with a rifle get into a kindergarten class, and

    b) how can it possibly take 20 minutes for first responders to arrive.

    This is absolutely inexcusable.

    • Rob Crawford says:

      I believe it’s 20 minutes from the start of shooting to response.

      Figure 2-5 minutes for someone with a phone, not being shot at, to realize what’s happening, 2-5 for the 911 operator to understand what the call’s about and get the word out. That leaves 10-16 minutes for the officers to get there. Not far off from what you report, once the word gets to the officers.

      • RedHat says:

        Should have been clearer: “home” is 30 minutes away from the nearest Walmart, a mile down a dirt road, with no other structures visible, on 30 acres of rocky hill side with a pop density < 35 per sq mile.

        20 min response to a shots fired call in suburbia at a school two miles away from the police station, there's something very, very wrong here.

      • Sebastian says:

        The quote from CNN was:

        Police and other first responders arrived on scene about 20 minutes after the first calls.

  6. Diane says:

    Maybe schools need more video surveillance and real time monitoring? Think of the kind of security setup big casino hotels in Las Vegas have

    • Rob Crawford says:

      How would that help? I’ve never heard of a case like this where guilt is in doubt, so it wouldn’t be to provide evidence.

      Wouldn’t there be more security if the people watching the video were armed and taking irregular walks around the school?

  7. Harold says:

    I knew it was a very long time when I read the police saying the response was, not the previous “5 minutes” or “quick”, but “instantaneous”. They’ve got some explaining to do, but I’m sure it’ll be easier to blame guns.

  8. Richard says:

    That a magazine ban is useless is a feature not a bug. Since it won’t work that will mean more opportunity for blood dancing and further restrictions.

  9. jack of all trades says:

    You would think that events like this would make the term “Combat Veteran” look like a plus on any application with local PDs…

  10. Matthew Carberry says:

    In 20 minutes a “well-regulated” Revolutionary-era militiaman could fire 60-80 aimed shots with his “original intent”, 2nd Amendment-protected, “military-style” weapon.

    If 3 unarmed, untrained people tried to intervene he could easily deal with them with his bayonet.

    That scenario changes a lot if one of those people has a flintlock pistol under their waistcoat.

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