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More Details in the Zimmerman Case

The AP is reporting that Martin was suspended from school for having a baggie that contained pot residue in his backpack. That in itself is not interesting, but if the kid went out to the store to catch a toke on the way, it could explain Zimmerman’s suspicion, and provide us with objective grounds for suspicion. This would point towards Zimmerman’s suspicion being reasonable, depending on what the toxicology report has to say. I guess the only thing that I wouldn’t understand is, don’t most people who get high off pot get really mellow? I don’t think it’s generally regarded as a drug that makes people violent, and I’d tend to think someone high on pot would only be dangerous to you if you were a bag of Doritos.

But police are now reporting that Martin decked Zimmerman with a single blow:

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

The big ??? still out there, to borrow a term from Tam, is what prompted Martin to deck Zimmerman. Was there a witness to that? The entire question of whether this is self-defense or not hinges on the answer to that question.

UPDATE: It would seem the narrative of the kid being a star student and untroubled is falling apart as we speak. This still does not answer ???, but I don’t excuse people, even people grieving, for manipulating the media and attempting to drive a narrative that is untrue.

59 Responses to “More Details in the Zimmerman Case”

  1. Ian Argent says:

    The proverbial $64,000 question; though the answer will cost or save Zimmerman rather more than that.

  2. Marq Yance says:

    As you pointed out, the proof (or at least some clarification) will be in the toxicology report. My initial thought was if the marijuana was laced with PCP (called a Sherm), a popular combination in some circles, that might explain why the popularly held opinion people smoking marijuana are “mellow” did not hold up here. It is also possible that marijuana will not be the only substance found in the decedent’s system, if any substance is found at all, accounting for his violent behavior. It is not popular to discuss, but marijuana, in my experience as a criminal defense attorney, is a gateway drug and is rarely the only substance a drug user indulges in. Time will tell

    • getalife says:

      While we are just making up facts. Maybe Zimmerman was still pumped up from beating a girl and was so stoked that he thought I will go screw with a neighbour kid. In my experience with mentally challenged sociopaths, they never can get enough of f*ing with people.

      And why didn’t the police conduct a tox screen on Zimmerman as they were supposed to do? They did not need any more info, the killer told them enough, no need to really investigate.

  3. Shrinkmd says:

    Marijuana alone can make people psychotic and violent, although it is uncommon. If he was smoking Spice or one of the synthetic cannabinoids, however, those are much stronger and more easily lead to aggressive behavior. They should definitely screen for the synthetics. They do not show up on a standard tox screen, you need to order it separately. And most ERs would have to send it out special.

    • Sebastian says:

      How common is spice? I’ve never even heard of it before.

    • Late nineteenth century medical journal articles about marijuana agree that its reputation for making people violent was not well deserved, although one author agreed that at least one person to whom he administered it–another doctor–definitely became violent. Marijuana, like alcohol, is an inhibition reducer. Some people need inhibitions so that they don’t drive around naked, or have sex with strangers. Other people need inhibitions so that they don’t punch people in the nose.

  4. JimB says:

    It seems to me if Zimmerman said or did something that caused Martin to knock him on his ass it’s Zimmerman’s bad at that point. If Martin would have left it at that he probably would still be alive. It all went south for him when he proceeded to try to bash Zimmerman’s brains out on the sidewalk. If that senario is alledged by Zimmerman and backed up by witnesses his only problem will be getting killed by some “seeker of justice”.

    • kfg says:

      If that something involved the gun Martin would have had reasonable fear, even of a decked assailant. You can’t outrun a bullet. Think about it. Was Zimmerman able to shoot Martin because he drew his gun after being decked and while his head was being pounded into the sidewalk, or was he able to shoot because the gun was already drawn.

      The fundamental question remains, which one of them was standing his ground.

      • Diane says:

        My money is on “the gun was already drawn.”

        • TS says:

          The problem is the eye witness didn’t report seeing a gun (at least as far as we know not having access to the full statement). However that doesn’t mean it wasn’t out and he both missed it. If Zimmerman claims he only drew as the last resort, and no testimony disputes that, you would lose your money.

        • Alpheus says:

          I have read many accounts of self defense; indeed, I recently re-read an account where a pawn shop owner shot a sword-wielding assailant in the eye with a pistol he forgot he had in his pocket.

          It isn’t all that unusual to pull out a gun after you have been knocked to the ground, or after a group of people gather around you to start beating on you, or some other situation where your life is clearly in danger because you were put into some sort of corner, and the assailant is beating or slashing you.

          • kfg says:

            A .25 ACP no less. I would dearly love to hear Jeff Cooper’s commentary on that particular incident.

            However, that incident is entirely unlike the one in question.

          • Diane says:

            It’s not just being knocked to the ground. According to the witness, Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Where was the holster? Where was the gun? According to the reports yesterday, Martin tried to take the gun away from Zimmerman. Did Martin see it in the holster on Zimmerman?

            I have a lot of questions that haven’t been answered about when the gun was introduced to the fight.

            • Harold says:

              According to the reports yesterday, Martin tried to take the gun away from Zimmerman.

              In the Orlando Sentinel articles I read that was unjustified spin added by the headline writer. The actual article just said there was a struggle for the gun, which is consistent with Massad Ayoob’s noting that after the shooting the gun had a full magazine.

              I have a lot of questions that haven’t been answered about when the gun was introduced to the fight.

              That’s nice. What makes you think you’re going to get any answers to them besides the account Zimmerman has provided and that more of was leaked yesterday?

              As far as I know none of the eyewitnesses saw or knew there was a gun involved until it was fired; Martin died from that, leaving only Zimmerman to explain what happened.

              • Sebastian says:

                I tend to agree… if the magazine was full that means the pistol didn’t cycle properly. That would imply a struggle for the gun. The kid could have had his hand on the slide, trying to tear it away. If he had pushed it out of battery, the gun wouldn’t have fired.

                • Harold says:

                  Suggests a struggle; I think imply is too strong, given that in those sort of close quarters all sorts of things could have prevented enough of a cycle to strip off the first round in the magazine.

                  And a correction, it was an ABC account where the text says:

                  George Zimmerman … originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

  5. JON says:

    Girlfriend was on the line right up to that first punch, according to what his parent’s lawyer released.

    All she reported Martin as saying was “What are you doing here” or words to that effect.

    • TS says:

      A point that I find curious is that Martin’s girlfriend said the line went dead after the two exchanged words. That sounds like a cliché from a B mystery novel, but the most logical explanation is that Martin hung up. Maybe he hung up because he was about to deliver a beat down and didn’t want his girlfriend hearing it, or maybe he hung up to call 911? If it were because the phone broke, or the battery discharged upon hitting the ground, it would be an easy piece of evidence that the police are aware of since day one but haven’t released to the public. If I were on the phone and in imminent trouble, I would want to stay on the phone so that whomever I was talking to could hear that I am in trouble. Did she call the police immediately after the call ended because she believed him to be in danger?

      • Jon says:

        I theorize a sucker punch from Martin.

        She said it sounded like he started to say something. Classic sucker punch – act like you are saying something as you wind up the punch so they are distracted. Throwing a full power punch as fast as you can is a violent enough action that it could easily throw an earpiece free.

        Target drops, follow him down and bounce his head off the pavement a couple times to make sure the problem is solved.

        Not far from what I might do if I felt sufficiently threatened.

        Problem with this theory is the minute plus of yelling for help.

  6. Pol Mordreth says:

    There are a lot of varieties of hybrid pot now, as well. As recent as 8 years ago in PA some co-workers of mine were using a variant they called “speedy weed”, which instead of making you mellow and munchie made you wired, jumpy, and aggressive. I assumed it was dusted with meth, but they insisted that it was some kind of hybrid.

    Regards,
    Pol

  7. SGB says:

    Mr. Martin is not the saint he has been portrayed as by the media. When the ???? becomes public knowledge I think a lot of people are going to look stupid.

  8. Andy says:

    Observing ABC News currently, the report is that Martin is 6’2″ and 140lb, while Zimmerman is 5’9″ and 200lb. Surely physics would have some play here. Martin has the reach, but I would think to knock Zimmerman down would require surprise. Experts in fight science, chime in.

    There is some allegation but he girlfriend, apparently, that Martin was using a headset. If it works via contact (as opposed to an exposed mic, like a Jabra or other noise canceling mics), that would explain a “dropped call” when the headset comes off. Call and tower records could potentially corroborate.

    • Jon says:

      My money says when the final medical examiner’s report comes in Martin tops 170 lbs.
      Parents always think their kid is smaller than they really are during the growing years; especially when they are in the ‘my baby’ mode.

    • kfg says:

      “Surely physics would have some play here.”

      If Zimmerman had been the one on top. The way we hear it “The bigger they are, the harder they fall” would apply. The actual material that makes up the weight and how it might be applied matters. Zimmerman would have a harder time standing up, even without added weight on his chest, than Martin.

      There are no skinny Sumo wrestlers, but no fat sprinters or rock climbers. Remember that weight classes in sports work under the assumption that the participants are otherwise similar as well.

      Let’s look at Bruce Lee as an example. In his prime his weight varied between 135 and 145 pounds. Does Zimmerman look anything like Bruce Lee, or more like the stereotype (unfortunately) of the FMAWM gun nut? Despite the weight difference who do you think would win a fight? Lee went as high as 165, but even though it was muscle, not fat, he dropped down because the added mass made him slower. With the lower weight he could still straight arm a 100 lb barbell for a minute and throw a passable punch.

      Although highly stylized football is a combat sport and certain positions require the same sort of power to weight ratio and speed as any other martial art.

      I don’t question in the least that Martin was the physically superior and that Zimmerman relied on a gun for force equalization against such.

      All of which would explain why, if Zimmerman displayed his gun as a preparation for, or display of, force. Martin was beating the living hell out of him. Behaving as a panther backed into a corner might have been his only perceived option. He was standing his ground barehanded against a gun.

      The case is a steaming pile of shit. It will remain a steaming pile of shit for always. It could have played either way and we’ll never know for sure.

      I think the one thing most of us agree on though is that even if Zimmerman isn’t guilty, he is certainly culpable for having got out of his damned car in the first place. Now he’s going to have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of his life. I hope it causes him some thought.

  9. Jake Bremer says:

    This “kid” is not the innocent angel he is portrayed to be. There was more to it the just pot possession:

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-reports-of-suspensions-paint-more-complicated-picture-of-trayvon-martin-20120326,0,7899737,full.story

    • Jon says:

      Does it really matter?

      • Jake Bremer says:

        Yes…it paints a picture of a troubled youth instead of the innocent angel and helps Zimmerman’s story that he was attacked. Doesn’t prove it….facts from the autopsy will. But if you were sucker punched and were on your back with your hand being slammed onto the ground(regardless of how you got there) you’d pull your gun too.

        • Jon says:

          Yup. I would.

          But the innocent angel thing never mattered. Innocent angels will still strike if they are scared enough.

          No need to drag the kid through the mud when the bare facts will do.

          • Jake Bremer says:

            First off…he’s not a “kid”..he’s 17. Old enough to do the same damage as an 18yr old, 20 yr old or 30 yr old. Second, “innocent angels” usually don’t strike when they are scared or even confronted by a neighborhood watch guy asking him what he is doing..they call 911(he had his cell phone with him) or they run like hell…or they knock on the many sliding glass doors mere feet away for help. Their first reaction wouldn’t be to engage someone. That is the SOP of a street thug who thinks he’s a tough guy. Finally, not dragging anyone through the mud by stating facts which have been painfully lacking in this case.

            • Diane says:

              A kid might do that, but I’m not sure he would if his opponent was displaying a gun. He knows he can’t outrun a bullet. His best chance (given the size of the kid) is to try and take the gun away from his opponent.

              There is mention in at least one of the news reports that they struggled over the gun.

              • Jonathan says:

                That is ridiculous. His BEST option as you put would not be to go for the gun. Compliance, in this case is the generally agreed upon course of action. My thinking (open for criticism), is that the gun must of been holstered.
                Reason being:
                1) If the young man was able to close the distance quicker than the man could pull the trigger they would of had to be very close, and if this was the case I find it hard to believe that witnesses wouldn’t of been able to see the gun.
                2.)The Martin did not just hit the guy and attempt to flee, instead, continued to assault him before any type of retaliation was made by Zimmerman. My head would of only been hit once on the ground before I at least fired a warning shot.
                Side note: the fact that he was not an angel as stated above does very well help in this case. It shows the temperance of the kid, that he was not one for AVOIDING trouble, and that suspicion may have been necessary for the questioning. Sorry

          • kfg says:

            “Yup. I would.”

            I’d like to see you do it. Really. Not being a smart ass. The whole point of having a gun is to be able engage at a distance, because once physical contact is made it’s almost always way too late; and that’s even before your head is being slammed against concrete.

            Once you’ve had a punch that actually put you down and have someone sitting on top of you (how do you carry?) and slamming your head I’d like to see you do anything but lizard brain flail about.

            The police reports are chock full of “I don’t know man, he was just so fast he was on me before I had a chance to pull my [whatever] and after that I was too busy with the getting stomped to manage it.”

            So, questions: What was Zimmerman doing closer than 21 feet? Are you ever going to let that happen to you if you are in control of combat range?

            “Innocent angels will still strike if they are scared enough.”

            Innocent angels, assuming they haven’t had their survival instinct crushed out of them, just like old men will fucking kill you in a heartbeat if you scare them bad enough, specifically because they don’t want to fight.

            It’s what I hope my own daughter will do if things ever come to that point for her.

            • Jake Bremer says:

              We’ll have to agree to disagree. Zimmerman stated he was walking away when he was sucker punched. So he wasn’t closing distance but walking away. I don’t believe he was looking to shoot anybody so he didn’t have his gun out. Should he have stayed in his vehicle? But he didn’t..and being stupid doesn’t mean someone can beat the crap out of you. If someone is on top of me, unless they are pinning my arms down(which he didn’t weigh enough to do) I could easily reach my gun. And believe me, that would be the only thing I’d be trying to do at that point.

              And the most common survival instinct isn’t fight…it is flight. Why do you think so much time in boot camp is put towards getting rid of that instinct? It actually takes a lot of training to rid yourself of the flight instinct and fight.
              Also…If you’re in an open area like Trayvon….which wasn’t anyplace dangerous(ie the ghetto) but a nicer development..a place where you’d least expect someone to kill you..a place that is basically feet from occupied dwellings with big sliding doors and windows…not at 3am but at 8pm..you aren’t in a state of heightened fear that every person who approaches you is a mortal threat. A reasonable person when confronted in such an open place at such a time(if they truly felt they were being stalked) would RUN or call 911. He wasn’t cornered..he was clearly younger and in better shape so he knew he could out run Zimmerman. Jumping a guy who DARES to hassle you is classic ghetto thug…everyone knows that. And this “kid” fits that profile…and I’m certain that even more things are going to come out in the next few weeks to solidify that.

              • kfg says:

                “Should he have stayed in his vehicle? But he didn’t..”

                Exactly. Hence he found himself punched. Allegedly without even knowing it was coming, although he was the tracker. He allowed the range to be closed by his actions and his lack of situational awareness.

                The hunter ended up as the hunted. If I get down off the roof of the Land Rover to maybe get a shot at a lion that went into that tall grass and the lion ends up on my back, I don’t blame the lion. If I don’t have backup on the Land Rover to get the lion off my back I don’t blame the lion for that either, nor do I expect anyone to offer excuses for me.

                I do spend the rest of my life looking at whatever bits of me didn’t come out as they went in as a reminder of what a complete idiot I was and how lucky I was to come out at all.

                I’m not talking about the legal case. I’m talking about the case study.

                “being stupid doesn’t mean someone can beat the crap out of you.”

                The evidence suggests otherwise. I am suggesting that you think about that for personal reasons. It remains to be determined whether he a had legal justification to do so. It will likely never be determined. The best we are likely to get is whether or not there is justification for charging Zimmerman, which is something rather different.

                “. . .unless they are pinning my arms down(which he didn’t weigh enough to do) . . .”

                I would like to see that. I happen to weigh 140 lbs, but I suspect we’re too distant to make the test.

                “I could easily reach my gun.”

                I would like to see that. Really. You never did tell me how you carry. Does the freedom of your arms even have anything to do with it? How did Zimmerman carry?

                I’m not saying you couldn’t, or that Zimmerman didn’t. I’m really, really saying I would like to see that. If you can do it reliably I would like to train with you.

                I will punch you hard enough that it actually drops you. Then I will get on top of you and starting pounding your head into the mat. Then you will get your gun.

                Show me.

                Have you ever had anyone on top of you pounding your head into the sidewalk? I have. Only I got sucker body slammed so it was my face that got pounded into the sidewalk. I didn’t even manage to flail. I was quite well stomped before I could so much as twitch. Why did he do it? Turns out he didn’t like my looks. That was all. I offended him aesthetically. He got three years probation even though he was a repeat offender because he was a moron.

                I guess in odd situations the stupid that got you into trouble can get you a good way out of it as well. Let’s see if it works for Zimmerman.

                “And the most common survival instinct isn’t fight…it is flight.”

                Flight is my second greatest survival skill. The first is not being there so I don’t have to fly. Zimmerman should have thought of that while he was still in his car, especially as it could be presumed that professional backup was already rolling.

                Again, I’m not talking about the case, I’m talking about the case study.

                “A reasonable person when confronted in such an open place at such a time . . . would RUN”

                Or hide and only reveal itself explosively at the last moment. Sometimes you don’t even know the rabbit was there until you are about to step on it.

                Are you suggesting that standing your ground is grounds for suspicion? What a philosophical mess that would make.

                But yes, why didn’t Martin run? It’s a valid question. I could out run Zimmerman with both hands tied behind my back (yes, that’s an impediment to running). I would run back to the store if I could. Bright lights. Lots of people. Security cameras. Call 911 from there. If not to a lighted porch, hopefully with a security camera, pound on the door and yell “Fire!” (no one will save you if you yell “Chocolate!”). A police station is a great place to run to if one is available.

                Of course there is the risk that someone might Castle Doctrine me.

                Maybe I know I can’t outrun Zimmerman’s car. Maybe I know I can’t outrun his bullet. Maybe I know that given the number of rabbits I’ve only seen as I was about to step on them means I never saw a very large number of rabbits that I merely stepped next to.

                Maybe I didn’t want to look suspicious, or knew that I had every right to be there and stand my ground.

                Or maybe he was just an idiot.

                Lotta maybes. They’re all possible valid answers though.

                “a place where you’d least expect someone to kill you..”

                A famous last expectation if there ever was one, especially if you’re already creeped out because someone is tailing you. I least expect to get killed in my home, because it’s the best defended. Every place else I’m pretty much fair game and I know it. To a certain extent I depend upon the kindness of strangers, but I do not expect them to be kind.

                “Jumping a guy who DARES to hassle you is classic ghetto thug…everyone knows that.”

                I’ll accept that. I can even relate it to personal experience.

                So, Martin is out in the open. He isn’t cornered. Zimmerman who belongs to the set “Everyone” knows “that”; and gets sucker punched.

                I repeat my question.

                When confronting a bear you slooooooowly back away. You do not run. You do not even turn your back on it. These are triggers for attack. But then everyone knows that.

                You certainly don’t approach the bear. Getting within a certain distance of it is an aggression trigger. At the very least it will prepare to stand its ground. Within that distance you are also unlikely to be able to draw a weapon if the bear charges. Ready arms.

                If you put yourself within simple paw swipe distance from in the open, well, than you kinda asked for it by being stupid.

                So repeat my other question.

                • Jonathan says:

                  Crazy… so your logic is that it is a reasonable action to beat someone that (my opinion) justifiably questions your intentions? That is like saying that it is OK to punch anyone in the face that makes snobby/ rude/ inappropriate comments to you, and if that was true then there would not be nearly as many assault charges that occur annually. I am not racist but their is a reason that people who dress a certain way, thugish like martin did, demand more attention by law enforcement and in this case NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, because they are usually the ones who commit the crimes. Did he need to get out of his car? Certainly! He was tasked with the well being of his neighborhood and rather than calling the police which could of potentially gotten the kid in more trouble, he instead went to talk on his own behalf before making assumptions.

          • SteveO says:

            Making sure that everyone is operating with the same background information on the individuals is not mud dragging.

            Up ’til now, the story has been characterized as Chunky Butt Cop Assaulter versus Chicago Jesus’ AlternaBaby. Not exactly reality.

    • kfg says:

      A reverse “Zimmerman has an arrest record for violence” with a half twist.

      Would you like to buy some tea?

  10. SPQR says:

    From the Miami Herald piece:

    Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

    Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

    “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

    Makes Zimmerman look less crazy for following Martin.

    • Sebastian says:

      Zimmerman couldn’t have known those details. The law only cares about what you reasonably believed. To me these facts don’t exonerate Zimmerman.

      But I think poorly of the family for making a concerted effort to deprive the public all the information. What pisses me off, is that the family hid this to avoid having an irrational public indict their son before he had a fair shake. They did this…. in order to indict George Zimmerman… before he could have a fair shake.

      It’s wrong. The family has pretty much lost my support at this point. They’ve been deceptive, dishonest, and are not seeking justice at this point. They don’t want justice. They want a lynch mob. That’s wrong no matter the color of the lynchers, and the color of the lunched.

      • Hank Archer says:

        Sebastian, you’re right, Zimmerman couldn’t have known this information, but somehow he “sensed” that Martin was the kind of person who could be up to no good. I’m not saying Martin was up to anything that night, but it is now apparent that there were occasions when Martin was involved in mischief (or things more serious). I don’t think it is fair to assume that Zimmerman was harassing a person who would never cause any trouble and that there was no way Zimmerman could have legitimately suspected Martin of any potential for bad behavior.

        There was something about Martin which troubled Zimmerman, and we now know that Martin did have the potential to be involved in anti-social behavior. To me this validates Zimmerman’s concern.

        Despite this (and speaking with very limited knowledge) I don’t think it was wise for Zimmerman to get out of his vehicle.

        I agree with you that Martin’s family has been manipulative and will bear the most responsibility for the trouble which will arise from this in the future.

        Ultimately, I fear that Martin will not be the only person whose life ended due to this incident.

        • Harold says:

          but somehow he “sensed” that Martin was the kind of person who could be up to no good.

          or he’s on drugs or something.

          Or both. And there’s probably no mystery to the “somehow he sensed” bit, if you’ve observant and spend enough time in … less than ideal places you get a sense for this sort of thing. I did fairly early in the dozen years I spent as a pedestrian and subway rider in the Boston area.

      • Bob S. says:

        Sebastian,

        You are right, Zimmerman couldn’t have known the facts about the jewelry but knowing the facts about the jewelry can confirm Zimmerman’s impressions the kid was suspicious looking.

        The behaviors of a criminal casing a house are well known; Martin was displaying many of those behaviors.
        Zimmerman noted that Martin was holding his shorts/sweats/pants in a fashion that lead him to believe he was carrying a weapon. That behavior was noted by POLICE as a flyer on how to spot a concealed weapon.

        Given the information Zimmerman relayed (and was recorded by 911) it seems that his suspicions were not unfounded. He didn’t describe person knocking on doors asking “Is this 911 North Field Street” when it was 911 South Field Street.

        It isn’t just the family that hid this information — it was the media that did not dig or worse if they had it did not publish it.

        Talk about hypocrisy — Martin’s past doesn’t matter but Zimmerman’s dismissed charges does.

  11. Jeff Dege says:

    Martin’ girlfriend, who was apparently talking to him on his cell phone, up unto the beginning of the confrontation, said that he’d seen someone following him, so he’d pulled his hoody up and walked fast and attempted to elude him.

    That is, in my mind, suspicious behavior in and of itself.

  12. Diane says:

    Here’s something I hadn’t heard before. Trayvon Martin made a 911 call while the attack was going on?

    http://soundcloud.com/​the-mokelly-radio-report/​abc7-chicago-acknowledges

    Lead SPD investigator wanted to press charges and filed an affidavit that he didn’t believe Zimmerman.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-detective-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674

    • Sebastian says:

      That’s very interesting. That’s something that should shed light on the ??? situation. I’d also be curious what make the Lead SPD investigator think Zimmerman wasn’t being truthful. Well, the fact that Martin called 911 could lead one to believe that.

      Criminals don’t call 911. If Martin called 911 and Zimmerman knew it; if the call was made during the confrontation and not leading up to it, that could cast doubt on the self-defense claim if Zimmerman didn’t disengage at that point. But words generally don’t create fault unless those words create a reasonable fear unlawful force is about to be used against you (i.e. threats). It’s going to come down to who was the first person to use unlawful force. Maybe this could shed some light on that, though.

    • Jeff Dege says:

      Odd. Because Martin’s girlfriend has said, and Martin’s phone logs apparently support, that she’d been talking with him on his cell phone the entire time, during his walk to the store, and during his walk back, up until the time he was confronted by Zimmerman.

      Trayvon Martin’s Last Phone Call Triggers Demand for Arrest ‘Right Now’

      My guess is that someone else made the 911 call, and the reporter simply got confused.

  13. Earl Schibe says:

    Odd. Because Martin’s girlfriend has said (or some attorney, Benjamin Crump, said she said), at least at last note, she never talked to law enforcement.

    Very Odd.

    Y’d have thunk that a cellphone held by Martin would be in the evidence lockup, being a fatality and all, but was apparently released w/o anybody even giving it a second glance.

    Very Odd Indeed.

    • Harold says:

      There’s no way this article can be entirely accurate, e.g.:

      Martin’s father, Tracey Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, listened to the call, along with ABC News, ashen-faced.

      Check the context of it, it implies to me they’re listening to the call with the girlfriend when that can’t be the case (no system, except perhaps an NSA one, and they aren’t going to supply anything—routinely records normal phone conversations, it’s just too expensive). That could only have referred to them listening to one of the police recorded 911 calls. Note also, like just about every other media account, it mentions the suggestion by the dispatcher to not continue following Martin but not his reply of “OK” (and from listening to the call and its wind in the mike or elevated breathing noise it’s consistent with him continuing to move for only a few more seconds; if the former, presumably to an area where Zimmerman was more comfortable continuing the call).

      Then there’s the point that no one connected to Martin contacted the police after the shooting; he was carrying no ID and wasn’t a resident of the area so it took them a day to figure out who he was (from fingerprints? Or see below). Now I can see them not contacting the police because they don’t trust them at all (Heck, we say “Don’t talk to the police”) but one still wonders about the girlfriend. The only reason I have to believe her is that her account is not clearly damning to Zimmerman (well, maybe she and her family and lawyers think so, but as a matter of law it isn’t based on the media reports I’ve read).

      Y’d have thunk that a cellphone held by Martin would be in the evidence lockup, being a fatality and all, but was apparently released w/o anybody even giving it a second glance.

      There are unresolved 4th Amendment issues with seized cell phones, plus I’m pretty sure only smartphones keep records of calls. Or maybe they used it or his phone company records to figure out who he was by calling his contacts.

      Because Martin’s girlfriend has said (or some attorney, Benjamin Crump, said she said), at least at last note, she never talked to law enforcement.

      It’s claimed that she made herself available to the police and they never followed up. Sounds like someone’s lying or grossly incompetent.

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