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Lawsuit Against Philly Settled

Looks like Mark Fiorino has settled with the City of Philadelphia for $25,000. They will retrain their officers on the legalities of open carry. Hopefully this settlement will convince the city it doesn’t want any more cases like this.

125 Responses to “Lawsuit Against Philly Settled”

  1. Pyrotek85 says:

    I won’t hold my breath regarding them changing their behavior, but it’s nice he got a settlement and hopefully can pay off his lawyer fees.

  2. Ian Argent says:

    Probably not, but I can only hope that’s $25,000 plus expenses.

  3. David says:

    He settled too fast and for too little. This is just going to be an out of pocket expense for Philly. They spend more on vehicle fuel each week. It’s a drop of rain in the ocean. To have maximum effect, he needed to have the cities insurance companies pay out. The insurance companies would have forced major changes at the PPD or they would have jacked up rates to the point were PPD would make the changes itself. He should have stuck it out and went for more, to personally hit the cops and Ramsey in their own pockets. Hitting cops in the pocket with the 1983 suit would send a clear and firm message to the PPD not to screw with people who choose to OC.

    I’m glad he won, but, I doubt it’s going to change anything in the long term.

    • Ian Argent says:

      Easy to say when you’re not paying the lawyer out of your own pocket. Even victorious lawsuits are expensive, tedious, and time-consuming

      • David says:

        Mark raised a lot of money for both his criminal case and his civil case. Also, seeing that the PA ACLU took up the case, his out of pocket costs were far less than you think. Secondly, when you’re suing an insurance company or municipality lawyers are very likely to take the case on a contingency basis or a reduced fee for a percentage of settlement. Given the past OC practices of the PPD an the past settlements that were agreed upon, there was no doubt that Philly would make a settlement offer, and no way Philly would win in court. Why do you think they settled so fast in this one. The ink was barely dry on the federal filing. That right there tells you something. The PPD was afraid of what could come out of full trial. They were afraid of a class action motion, and they were afraid of a potential consent decree. So, the dangled a little bit of money in front of a kid who doesn’t have much and it took the bait.

        The sad part here is the the PPD will not admit wrong doing nor does the settlement include any specific training changes. Basically, there was nothing won for gun owners in this suit. Pretty said given they, the gun owners, were the ones who funded his defense and civil motions. PPD will continue to harass open carriers, the Philly DA will continue to bring BS charges, and we’ll be hearing about more lawsuits and more arrests.

        In the end, nothing has changed.

        • David, I agree with you that the amount of the settlement is likely much too little and was arrived at too quickly.

          And I also agree with Ian that when you’re (at least partially) footing the bill, a settlement is attractive.

          But what happens now?

          If I were Fiorino, I would give PPD a couple of months to carry out their “re-training”, and then I would probably go about the same route doing the same thing he was doing when he was arrested the first time – all while openly carrying (as the law provides). Then the suit could be much bigger, and may also include some officers personally (certainly the Chief of Police).

  4. mobo says:

    That’s it?

  5. JR says:

    From http://tinyurl.com/6p8sqc9 :

    ‎”Lawyer Benjamin Picker says Fiorino accepted the city’s offer Thursday because the city has retrained officers.

    A city spokesman says the city admits no wrongdoing and is not revising its policies.”

    In other words, the city just lied about retraining officers to get out of the lawsuit. It should be reinstated immediately.

    • mobo says:

      Exactly. That dirty Irish ass of a police officer should have been fired and lost his pension too.

  6. mobo says:

    (nothing against Irish people)

  7. mike says:

    http://articles.philly.com/2012-03-08/news/31136041_1_open-carry-gun-owners-applebee

    This guy is as bright as the clowns in California who worked so hard to get open carry outlawed there. I don’t mind that he’s pushing his own luck, I mind that he’s pushing mine. Out of touch open carry extremists will disagree, of course. Perhaps less so if they live in California and find themselves unable to carry even an unloaded handgun because of their own stupidity.

    • David says:

      You have to start to ask, is he OC’ing for any other reason than the attention? He wants attention, negative included, and he keeps getting it. It always seems to be the least educated guy in the room who want to designate himself as the chief educator and representative of all gun owners.

      It’s pretty clear that the philly reporters are regulars on pafoa. Pafoa had so much promise, but, Dan basically ignored the forums and they’ve turned in a public display of just how stupid people can be even when they know someone else is watching. They’ve let the idiot overrun and moderate the forums; the only forum of any value is the for sale area.

      • mobo says:

        He’s probably got a bit of “Rosa Parks” syndrome, for sure. And the only reason that open carry is legal is because it hasn’t specifically been made illegal – and our state constitution provides no barriers to making OC illegal throughout the state.

        And anybody who knows how real-world thugs operate can tell you that OC will only make you a target for robbery. You have something they want and they will take advantage of even a split-second’s hesitation to bust your face and snatch it.

        But while all of this is true, none of this excuses what the cops did to this guy.

        • mike says:

          And the only reason that open carry is legal is because it hasn’t specifically been made illegal

          Don’t worry, he and his merry band of OC misfits are working on it.

          See: California.

        • twency says:

          “And the only reason that open carry is legal is because it hasn’t specifically been made illegal ”

          Which is true of almost every act which is legal. The law doesn’t enumerate things we may do, it enumerates things we may not do (plus exceptions to those prohibitions).

          Should people not engage in legal acts because of the possibility those acts might be made illegal later? If so, there’s no value in those acts being legal anyway (because by your reasoning people shouldn’t do them even if they are legal) so it really doesn’t matter whether doing them contributes to making them illegal.

          • mobo says:

            No, but should not engage needlessly in legal acts which we all know are *likely* to wind up on the legislator’s radar screen. There is absolutely no tactical advantage to OC, no matter what anybody says to the contrary.

            • twency says:

              “no matter what anybody says to the contrary”

              The sign of an open mind.

              • mobo says:

                Go ahead and open carry in the ghetto. Try to walk through a gaggle of hoodlums standing on the corner and they WILL snatch your pistol before you can draw it. They will NOT be intimidated by your display of a firearm, and you will get your ass beat. Drawing your firearm beforehand and walking through them with the muzzle end pointed at them is not a realistic option in the real world. That will get you locked up. Putting your hand on an openly displayed weapon, even just to prepare to draw while holstered, gives them reason to claim that that YOU were the aggressor, should anything come of it.

                99.999% of self-defense tactics involve non-violent avoidance measures. The other .0001% depend on the element of surprise, which you are pretty much guaranteed not to have if you are open carrying. Police are able to draw their weapons *before* a threat is right on top of them without fear of being arrested. The rest of us have a fraction of a second to decide when it is appropriate to draw a firearm.

                And let me repeat this – open carry is NOT a right. Legislators could ban the practice if they so choose, and nothing in our state constitution can serve as a barrier to this. We have a right to bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. But this does not necessarily mean that we can’t be required by law to keep them concealed.

                The cops were wrong to treat Fiorino as they did, but only because there is no law at present that they can point to as RAS that a crime was being committed. This could change in the future. I do however support the use of voice recorders and cameras to document police conduct.

                • Bryan S. says:

                  So, tell us in your great wisdom where the right to keep and bear arms, in defense of ourselves and the state, speaks to the part where one must carry concealed?

                  Or are you of the idea that Texas has it right, that showing your firearm on a hip should land you in jail? Unless of course, your one of the special animals and have a badge. then its just fine and dandy.

                  Everyone seems to forget that this was not a settlement to make go away, it was an admittance of guilt, as an Offer of Judgement. They knew they couldn’t win on it.

                • Sebastian says:

                  The current court strategy, to get around the fact that a number of state analogues to the Second Amendment allow for banning concealed carry, is to suggest that the state has to allow some manner of carry, but can regulate how a person can carry with regards to social sensibilities. That’s essentially the argument Alan Gura’s cases have been using.

                  So it’s basically a right to bear arms, with the government able to regulate certain aspects of how one carries firearms.

            • knight0334 says:

              There isn’t any real tactical advantage to CC either. If you are in a situation that demands drawing of your firearm, the odds are the other person already has their weapon aimed at you. At that point, you have no advantage whatsoever.

              This tactical advantage stuff is a load of bullcrap in the argument for both CC and OC. When bad folks act, most of the time they do so with the weapon in hand and ready to fire. If your gun is still in the holster, whether openly or concealed, you are (2) steps behind.

    • Matt says:

      Ugh. The downfall of carrying a firearm has nothing to do with OC’ing. It has to do with the people on here, instead of banding together and standing behind one another and making PA a 2A friendly place, people like the OP and the repliers to this comment will be the downfall. You may not like OC, and no one is forcing you to OC. The bottom line is it’s not against the law so if people want to do it, let them. Not sure why this is such a BIG problem.

      • mike says:

        You completely missed the point. I don’t think anyone here has a problem with OC. We have a problem with people strapping guns on for publicity stunts. For a good indication of how well that works, look at the results of similar stupidity in California.

        If we’re trying to say that guns aren’t that big of a deal, then we should just behave like regular, normal people. Instead, you get these clowns trying to make a big show of it. It goes a little something like this:

        Look at me everyone! And you’d better not arrest me! Hahaha!

        Look at ALL of us as we go to the salad bar!

        Why is everyone staring at us?!? We’re just regular folks wearing guns! Stop staring at us!

        Wait, now look at me! Look at all of us! We have guns, and it’s legal and there’s nothing any of you can do about it!

        • twency says:

          “strapping guns on for publicity stunts”

          I don’t necessarily have a problem with people doing so, but in any case that’s not what happened here. Fiorino goes out openly armed every day. Unless you’re claiming that he’s performing a publicity stunt every single day, your comment doesn’t hold water.

        • twency says:

          ” I don’t think anyone here has a problem with OC. ”

          I beg to differ.

          mobo: “There is absolutely no tactical advantage to OC, no matter what anybody says to the contrary.”

      • David says:

        “instead of banding together and standing behind one another and making PA a 2A friendly place,”

        You’re just not getting it. These OC fools do these stunts under the guise of so called education. They’re not making anyone pro 2a. Instead, people are saying look at that douchebag, look at that attention whore, or just asking why. This OC movement seems to attract on type of person. The undereducated, underemployed, poor physical appearance guy who society otherwise ignores. They’re doing this crap as a way to say, “look at me, notice me, I’m important”. They’ve self appointed themselves as ambassadors for gun rights while doing more harm and less good.

        If you want to make someone pro2a, take them out shooting. Make sure they have fun. Keep doing this and you’ll be shocked how many of them ask to you go again or ask you to take them gun shopping.

        This OC movement is not pro2a, you can’t even get gun owners behind these stunts you’re pulling. You’re going to make OC illegal for all of us all of the time. See CA. You’re nothing more than armed activists who can’t even clearly state your end goal.

        • twency says:

          “You’re nothing more than armed activists who can’t even clearly state your end goal”

          Seems like the “end goal” is to go about one’s business openly armed and unmolested by the police. Clearly, that goal has not yet been reached, but Fiorino and company are making progress in that direction.

          • mike says:

            Serious question. Do you play Dungeons and Dragons? Are you massively over or underweight? Do all of your friends have online aliases like “LazerDude007″ and “DoctorAwesome”? Do you have lots of Star Wars dolls and playsets in their original, unopened boxes? I ask because you seem to be detached from the real world – where meeting up for a gun-themed publicity stunt might be looked upon with skepticism, and where normal people don’t strap on a voice recorder for an innocent walk down the street.

            • Matt says:

              There is it, I knew it wouldn’t be long until you started making fun of and using personal attacks against people you don’t agree with.

          • mobo says:

            I agree with that end goal, but it has to be more incremental than this. Taking people shooting for the first time is a good first step. Armed OC meet and greets are sort of the same thing as gay pride parades where everybody shows up in assless chaps and juggles dildoes in the middle of the street. It will do nothing to accomplish ” normalization”.

            • mike says:

              Armed OC meet and greets are sort of the same thing as gay pride parades where everybody shows up in assless chaps and juggles dildoes in the middle of the street.

              DING DING DING! We have a winner! This is exactly the problem, and these guys are so out of touch that they think what they’re doing actually helps. Meanwhile the cops get called to their little PR stunts and then they wonder why everyone else just doesn’t get it.

              I think they actually believe they’re doing gun owners a favor.

              • Matt says:

                Ahh, compare OC meet and greet to a gay pride parade. I see where this is going. Just remember that Josh Horwitz of CSGV (an anti-gun group) equated OCer’s to the Lincoln Assassin and Mass Murderers….. Sounds like your headed down that path.

                • David says:

                  Sorry Matt. Your OC tactics are the same as that of Act Up and other public shock groups. It doesn’t work.

                • mobo says:

                  I was simply pointing out that you cannot use shock tactics to gain widespread acceptance. Just as these gay pride parades have done enormous damage to the reputation of millions of perfectly normal, everyday people who happen to be gay, these OC events are doing the same to the rest of us.

                  Don’t get me wrong, I’m definitely NOT a supporter of the Philadelphia Police (or police in general), and I’m glad to see these OC people win lawsuits, but it will prove to be counterproductive in the long run.

        • Matt says:

          Can’t get gun owners behind them huh? Yet it seems that there is about 30-40 people from all over PA & NJ that are getting together to this OC Meet and Greet at Applebee’s. If we look at the PAFOA there is almost 66,000 posts in the Open Carry forum, and only 36,000 in the Concealed Carry forum. Both were started at the same time it would seem.

          In my opinion it would seem the exact opposite is going on, more and more people are getting into OC. Like I said before, it makes no difference if you like it or not, no one is forcing you into doing it.

          I have been to a OC meet and greet before and it wasn’t anything like was stated. We went, talked, joked and had fun.

          “Look at me everyone! And you’d better not arrest me! Hahaha!
          Look at ALL of us as we go to the salad bar!
          Why is everyone staring at us?!? We’re just regular folks wearing guns! Stop staring at us!
          Wait, now look at me! Look at all of us! We have guns, and it’s legal and there’s nothing any of you can do about it!”

          None of the above happened, and this was right outside of the King of Prussia mall. I’m sure this does happen though and I’m also sure that there are numerous people that CC and act the exact same way, I’ve met a couple of them.

          If you choose to CC then great! If you choose to OC then great also! The more people that carry, the more people will realize that carrying a weapon doesn’t make any of us bad people. When gun owners start to fight against other gun owners, that is when any of these anti-gun groups can place a wedge between us all and before you know it we’ll have another CA on our hands.

          • David says:

            You’re using bad statics to try and justify your cause. Wow, 66,000 posts in a forum. Some of those forum users have lost wives because of their forum life. When you have posters with 8,000+ posts, you really only have about 20 active members.

            30-40 people getting together in a metro area with a population of 6 million. You’re only attracting a very small fraction of gun owners. You’re statically insignificant.

            “I have been to a OC meet and greet before and it wasn’t anything like was stated. We went, talked, joked and had fun.” So then you were there just to attract attention to yourself in public. You could have ad the meet and greet at a private facility or residence – given your tiny turnout.

            • Matt says:

              Let me start out with a good *head desk*

              I was not aware that all 6 million people in this metro population were on the PAFOA and know about the meet and greet, my bad. When someone believes in something they should never go out and do it or tell people about it either, afterall, if we just keep quiet about OC, CC or firearms in general all there campaigns to take them away, will go away.

              If the PAFOA has only 20 active members though and 30-40 members come out I’d say that’s a pretty good percent of members that attended. 150-200% right?

              If talking, joking and having fun is going out to attract attention then, EVERYTIME I go out that’s what I’m trying to do. Correct?

              • David says:

                Mike, you’re so insignificant that a gathering of 6 fingered people would have a deeper pool and larger gathering. You’re playing so well into what a said before. Society basically ignores you. You OC just to get noticed from people who would otherwise pay no attention to you.

          • mike says:

            Can’t get gun owners behind them huh? Yet it seems that there is about 30-40 people from all over PA & NJ that are getting together to this OC Meet and Greet at Applebee’s.

            Wow, that’s impressive and epic. That’s probably over .0000001% of the gun owners in the region! Applebees will probably change their entire business model so they can keep that massive gravy train coming.

            And yes, PAFOA. That’s a good place to feel the pulse of the average PA gun owner. It’s not in any way a hideout for gun-owning losers whose social skills and societal disconnect keep them from normal human interaction while racking up 4 and 5-digit post counts, all while secretly hoping to achieve almost god-like Moderator status so they can wield the power of the ban hammer themselves. Nope, it’s not like that at all. In fact, the more posts one has there, the more of a winner they are. I think I read that in someone’s sig.

            • David says:

              Damn Mike, you nail that in few words. I’m going to have to use what you wrote for later cut and past.

            • Matt says:

              Sounds to me like someone got banned from the PAFOA and has no where to outlet their arguing, probably because you’re unable to follow rules, so you use the comments of someones blog…..

              • mike says:

                Nope. While I do admit to using PAFOA for the classifieds, it’s otherwise almost exclusively dedicated to people who think they’re legal experts, commandos, and civil rights attorneys all wrapped into one. It’s also a great place for folks planning misguided gun-related PR stunts to find like-minded people who will all agree how brilliant and foolproof the plan is, and how the obvious result of their plan is more gun rights and the elusive “normalization” they so crave. Dungeons and Dragons tournaments notwithstanding.

              • David says:

                This is the standard nitwit answer “sounds like someone got banned”. I agree with Mike, other than the classified, there it little value to that site beyond the laughs you get from the sheer amount of stupid that some people are publicly willing to disclose. The OC forum provides the most entertainment value as there seems to be a running challenge to see which attention whore can one up the level of stupid.

        • Ted says:

          As a participant that is six foot tall 155lbs statistician making 6 figures I laugh at your attempt to poke fun at people because you have no valid logical argument and yet your classification of the typical participant was incorrect. Most of the people there were not unemployed, poor, or overweight. OC has huge tactical advantages and that IS why police officers OC. For someone so obviously uneducated to say that others are ignorant is entertaining…

          • David says:

            “As a participant that is six foot tall 155lbs statistician making 6 figures”

            That’s great to know.

          • Dan says:

            Yet Teddy you live in a shit hole townhouse on Laura Lane in Upper Pottsgrove. You are nothing other than a pencil necked geek.

  8. Lamont says:

    Should’ve juiced them for more zeroes just for their arrogance alone.

  9. dustydog says:

    I would like see the federal government pick up the ball here (after January, I know) – the civil rights violations didn’t go away just because the victim settled.

  10. Robert says:

    Wow, when did CSGV and the Brady Campaign start posting on this blog? Personal attacks against not just Mark Fiorino, but every OCer? What message does this send to the anti crowd? If you people want to keep playing the divided card, EXPECT our opponents to exploit it.

    The DPR of Kalifornia has no bearing on what happens in Pennsylvania. It’s a completely different place, with completely different voters, and completely different politics. The ban on OC in CA may actually work to the 2As favor, because they’ve in effect made the whole “bear arms” part illegal. So OC in CA may have inadvertently created a situation where the legislature that IS FORCED to obey the constitution.

    The FACTS are that Mark Fiorino was accosted by these hooligans with badges, maliciously prosecuted when he released the audio of his rights being violated, and then took the city to task with a federal lawsuit. Now, the settlement might have been $25 or $25 million, but regardless the only recourse was a monetary sum, so there is no way he could have forced the city to retrain its officers. This is a drawn out ordeal and I personally do not fault him for taking the settlement. This was a CIVIL RIGHTS issue, not a gun issue, it just happens that his firearms rights were infringed.

    Who said that OC isn’t a right? What part of the 2A to the constitution or article 2 of the commonwealth constitution states open or concealed? Carry is a right, period. Either you believe that, or you don’t. There is no grey area, there is no discussion; open or concealed is irrelevant.

    To the rest of you detractors, either you’re with us in the fight for 2A rights, or you’re against us. I’m tired of the Fudd crowd acting all high-and-mighty and denouncing the open carriers, it reminds me of the poem, “First they came.”

    Also, to comment on the “OC provides no tactical advantage” bull, explain why the police OC then? Do they have magical cop powers that gives them an advantage? Why aren’t they disarmed and the firearm stolen at an alarming rate? The FACTS are that CC and OC both have their disadvantages and advantages. OCers can get to the firearm faster, CCers are difficult to spot. From my experience, most people have no clue you’re carrying OC, and you could be resting your arm on it and they would have no idea.

    • mike says:

      Wow, when did CSGV and the Brady Campaign start posting on this blog?

      They didn’t – instead they decided that the best way to turn the public against gun owners is to OC at Applebee’s, Starbucks, little league soccer games, etc. Some of the OCers don’t even realize who they’re working for. While I don’t actually believe that the CSGV/Brady Bunch are behind these OC stunts, I don’t think I’d be able to tell the difference if they were.

      The ban on OC in CA may actually work to the 2As favor, because they’ve in effect made the whole “bear arms” part illegal.

      I bet that hypothetical future benefit isn’t really convenient to someone who needs to use the perfect tool for self defense today, but can’t.

      And it’s not Fudds who are calling these clowns out, btw. Fudds are the ones who couldn’t care less about gun restrictions so long as their duck gun is still safe. They’re not high on my list either.

      • Valorius says:

        I have seen exactly zero attempt by the Pa legislature to outlaw OC. And none is likely to be forthcoming either.

        This is not Kalifornia, it’s Pennsylvania. Any gun control measure that is introduced in the Pa legislature is effectively dead on arrival.

        Seriously….lighten up francis.

    • David says:

      Just because you OC’er want to be attention whores, don’t expect nearly all gun owners to line up behind you. You’re a fringe group of pot bellied, underemployed, underskilled, low wage idiots looking for society to take notice of you.

      It’s also your right so stand on the corner of front and main sts. with a bikini on and a sign saying that aliens are coming. Again, don’t expect to find too many people willing to line up behind you.

      The OC movement always seems to attract the same type of shortsighted nitwits.

      • Jon says:

        Wow, for someone who claims he supports guns you sound like an anti. Also the way your actually putting a barrier between you and open carriers is pretty stupid. Carry, let others carry how they see fit, it doesn’t hurt you.

        “You’re a fringe group of pot bellied, underemployed, underskilled, low wage idiots looking for society to take notice of you.”

        How would the anti feel if they knew gun owners were talking about other gun owners like that. You sound immature and need to get your priorities straight in what really matters here, Nitwit.

      • Valorius says:

        Yet amazingly, tons of Pa gun owners HAVE lined up behind Mark and the OC cause.

        Which kind of directly contradicts your claim…dunnit?

    • David says:

      “Also, to comment on the “OC provides no tactical advantage” bull, explain why the police OC then?”

      Repeat after me. “You are not the cops, and one more time, you are not the cops.”. This is the major defect in your brain. Do you OC so people might mistake you for the cops? Cops have a uniform for a very specific reason, to convey authority and provide a visible symbol of authority and force.

      • Justme says:

        I’ve seen posts at PAFOA from OCers who claim they have got “cop coffee” when OCing in a stop-n-rob.

      • Ted says:

        You are so incredibly wrong that you can’t even give a half-assed illogical argument. What makes a cop different from anyone in a fight? They do no have magical powers that protect them anymore than when they’re not wearing the badge. Your insults show your lack of intelligence

        • Dan says:

          Most of these OC’ers are upset because they couldn’t pass the physical agility test to become a Police Officer. It’s kinda like fire police syndrome.

    • Rydak says:

      Robert,

      Are you kidding me? ‘Why do police OC?” Their in uniform….first site, everyone knows who they are and that they are armed…no reason to hide it. And police do often get disarmed and injured or killed with their own weapon. This is common knowledge in police training and statistics. Additionally, while I don’t believe they have magic powers, they do have advanced and continuous training….training that is vetted and constructed over decades thru trail and error, lessons learned…ect. Not some of that wonderful magic the common man can find on our blessed mother of YouTube(Some of which aint bad…but most…bla)

      • Ted says:

        They do not get disarmed often. Where do you come up with this crap? Furthermore anyone clan get the same officer training if they want. Do you typically like to.lie and make straw arguments to compensate for your small brain? Hey look I can be an asshole that insults too.

        • Rydak says:

          Yea, they do. And even more successful attempts are made.

          Where do you get you facts?

    • Rydak says:

      The best example is plain cloths police. They don’t OC….for a reason. They don’t want to loose the advantage. If a thug knows you have a gun, their approach, as would be yours, is totally different. You’ve lost your best advantage.

      I dont believe you will ever find a credible tactical defense expert in the world who would stand behind OC.

      Everyone is entitled to their opinion for sure. But man, as a life member of the NRA and a dedicated defender of 2A….this shit really helps to set us back in our fight. NO good reason for it. The camera or mic…another good indication that the OC’r knew or had good reason to know that the police were coming. And BTW…why were the police coming? We all know why, because they received like 15 calls from concerned citizens say “I see a guy with a gun!!)

      And the OC’rs know that’s going to happen also. Attention whores. Nothing more.

      As for PA not being like CA. I agree. however. When the Anti-gunners,we have plenty, come to take away OC….do you really think you will find the NRA and a tons of other 2A defenders rallying to your side? Don’t hold your breath.

      • Ted says:

        Again logic fail and/or lies… plain clothes do not OC because they are undercover and don’t want people to know or suspect that they are cops. WOW! Lots of stupidity here

      • Ted says:

        They do not get disarmed often. Where do you come up with this crap?

        No one called on mark. You’re wrong there too.

        He got harassed prior and went through to motions previously they changed their procedures and mark suspected they wouldn’t follow through hence the recorder. And he was correct.

        SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED. Means not at all and that applies to OC.

        • Rydak says:

          Ted, seriously . That’s the same thing as to why plaint clothes cops don’t OC. You taking about sitting hairs on a non-issue. Perhaps it the public opinion that anyone carrying OC must be a cop is something that appeals to you?

          I get my facts about police being disarmed from the fact that I am a police officer. The FBI records these statistics. And a great feal of training deals with preventing disarmsd. Many many police officers have died from their own weapon being taken from then. You and I are welcome to out own opinions …not our own facts.

  11. Matt says:

    Fiorino whored himself to the PPD for 25k pieces of silver.

    1. No written guarantee of re-training? Check
    2. No financial penalty of any sort for the individual officers? Check.
    3. No financial penalty significant enough to actually alter the PPD’s behavior? Check.

    In other words, the open carry crowd needs to find a plaintiff with more stones, a better background, and solid funding the next time. The current suit not only accomplished nothing, but established nicely the costs of your rights in Philly and set that bar at a whopping $25k, I hope he does not spend it all at once……

    • Rydak says:

      #2 could not apply, officers, besides bad language, were acting on a legtimate call for service and in good faith. The Da’s prosecution and such is a another story, but the individual officers, as person would not be paying out.

      PS: Your a goofball.

      • David says:

        If “you’re” going to call people goofballs, you should consult with “your” armchair GED lawyers over on PAFOA. You don’t seem to have an understanding of a 1983 lawsuit or the basics of civil court.

        There is a reason Philly was so fast to settle, they did not want the court handing down a judgement. Nothing at all was accomplished from this lawsuit, nothing at all.

        • Ted says:

          Educate yourselsettlements agreed judgement! Not a settlement. It will be on record.

  12. mobo says:

    @Robert:

    “Who said that OC isn’t a right? What part of the 2A to the constitution or article 2 of the commonwealth constitution states open or concealed? Carry is a right, period. Either you believe that, or you don’t. There is no grey area, there is no discussion; open or concealed is irrelevant.”

    Our State constitution guarantees the right to bear arms specifically for the purpose of self-defense and for defense of the state. You have a right to defend yourself, and you have a right to possess the tools necessary for defense. A requirement that you keep your gun covered does not hinder this right in any meaningful way.

    And strictly speaking, the Second Amendment serves only as a protection against actions taken by the Federal Government. When you speak of Second amendment rights in the context of protections from state laws, you are really referring to the Due Process clause of the 14th amendment. And there is a hopelessly tangled web surrounding the extent of these protections, which are only beginning to get addressed in the courts. There really IS a lot of gray area, you see….

  13. Robert says:

    I see the ad hominem doesn’t cease. Frankly, you armchair legislators are welcome to your opinion, and I’m happy that you’ve proven yourselves wildly unelectable because that opinion is dangerous to public liberty.
    I have personally met the people that organized the OC at Applebee’s and the OC at Starbucks, at least locally. Your OPINION that they are CSGV moles is unfounded and offensive.

    Rydak, Mobo, David, and Mike, your views aren’t grounded in reality. Until you can have a reasonable discussion without personally attacking the open carriers, I’m done.

    • Rydak says:

      Robert Says: “your views aren’t grounded in reality.”

      Hey, when all else fails you, including facts….I guess that line will just have to do egh?

      Seriously though…find me one professional (Credible) Defense trainer who supports this goofball theory..

    • David says:

      You’re not done. The army of useless idiots is assembling now:

      http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/166441-comments-shall-not-questioned-regarding-marks-case.html

      I can’t wait till you post those Applebee’s photos.

      • mike says:

        @David: That’s precious right there. Thanks for sharing.

        @Robert:

        Until you can have a reasonable discussion without personally attacking the open carriers, I’m done.

        I don’t have any problem with OCers, I have a problem with the folks strapping guns on for the sole purpose of getting in everyone’s face and saying “Look at us! We’re defending the 2nd Amendment by going to the salad bar! Wait, are you detaining me?!?”

    • mobo says:

      @Robert:

      “Rydak, Mobo, David, and Mike, your views aren’t grounded in reality. Until you can have a reasonable discussion without personally attacking the open carriers, I’m done.”

      Please don’t confuse anything I have said as a personal attack against the OC crowd. I have not personally attacked anybody here – I have made no references to people as fat, uneducated, or as Dungeons and Dragons players. My comparison to the gay pride parades was simply to point out the obvious parallels, and that “IN YO FACE!” tactics can be counterproductive. I have made no accusations that the OC people are CSGV moles, either.

      And nothing I have said about the tactical disadvantage OC puts one in should be be construed as an endorsement of making the practice illegal. I just think it’s a bad *choice* for the carrier to make. And as I’ve said before, there is no constitutionally protected right to OC, either at the federal or state level. It could be made illegal at any time. Sorry, but that is a fact. Believe me, I wish it were not a fact.

      • David says:

        I doubt you’re done. What you guys are doing is solely for attention. This is why you make a scene of your little OC events. This is why you invite the media, this is why you post your little OC logs on that other site. You’re doing this for attention, and that’s it. It has nothing to do with any of the other so called reasons you claim. I’m not anti OC. I’m anti jackass. If you going to run around trying to get in confrontation with the cops you’re not doing anyone any good. If you running around trying to get shock value out of people while shoving a pafoa trifold in there face, you’re not doing anyone any good.

        Your little OC events are not accomplishing anything positive. I’m sure there will be some more “no guns” signs going up after this weekends stunt and press converge. Also, the nonsense you post on PAFOA makes you all look like fools. Here are some of my favorite hits:

        Kicked out of walmart…
        My negative encounter with an OC’er today. – This is spot on
        Positive then negative Encounter with the land lord
        JustinHemi’s OC blog. – Why god, why
        MadamRaven & AMGibson Arrested – this one is the most pathetic
        Please Help – Arrested In Westmorland County for Open Carry
        Victory Brewing, Downingtown, NOT OC Friendly!
        Positive encounter in Sheetz bathroom. – Really?
        ‘Asked’ to leave the Mall at Robinson

        This is the stuff you think about and then post. Your little spur of the moment “education” attempts do so much damage for all gun owners.

  14. BigAndy1966 says:

    So I guess police should conceal carry as well, Military Police, soldiers and anyone else who carries a weapon since there are no tactical advantages to having the firearm out in the open.

    I open carry because its comfortable, and whats more it is my right to do so. It is legal, and constitutionally protected by both the state and National levels.

    Don’t like open carry, then don’t do it. You guys cops by chance? Maybe from new York, New Jersey? Having a law abiding citizen close to you, openly armed knocks your little power trip paradigm a little off kilter? Maybe you feel a little uncomfortable? Good.

    Those of us who KNOW the laws and history of concealed carry are rooted in racism, bigotry and oppression refuse to let another of our RIGHTS get cast off into a closet and quietly legislated away.

    • Justme says:

      Many police DO carry concealed for tactical reasons. Detectives, plains clothes, under cover, FBI, Secret Service, ATF, DEA, US Marshalls, the list goes on and on of Police carrying CC. You only see uniformed Police openly carrying.

      • Heather from AK says:

        Actually, I saw a cop OCing just the other day while not in uniform. He did have his badge visible on his belt though (since OC is illegal for us peons in my current location). So “only” isn’t quite accurate.

  15. Justme says:

    I’ve been a member at PAFOA for years and it has gone down in credibility since OC became such a hot topic. The OC mafia is a very small minority with a very big mouth. Too many of them seem to want attention from wearing a gun or hope a confrontation with a police officer will bring them a financial windfall. A gun is NOT some magic talisman that wards away evil spirits. Instead it is the training one takes to use a firearm in self defense that will protect their life.

    I don’t carry to educate, or make a public display of exercising my 2A rights. I carry for self protection. If a threat presents itself I’ll make the decision as to when my firearm comes out or stays concealed. A determined criminal doesn’t care you have a gun displayed on your hip. To him it’s just one more item that he wants to take. And he and his fellow thugs will take it if they want it. It has happened it will happen again. CC is so much more tactically sound than OC. Carrying OC will force you into action by reacting to a threat. CC allows you to time your actions which will force to perp to react. Action always beats reaction. I have never seen anyone come up with a tactical argument for OC, and please don’t tell me it prevents crime. No more than garlic wards off vampires.

    Ask them how much training they have and you’ll be sadly disappointed. Too many of them turn 21, buy a gun and “strap on” their new toy with little or no training. They ran a poll at PAFOA once and the number of OCers and CCers without any professional training was alarming. I’d like to see a new poll over there to see how much PROFESSIONAL training these people have.

    I was hoping OC was just a fad and would go away. But there seems to be a very minute group of easily influenced people who fall under the mythical attraction of OC.

    • Sebastian says:

      The real issue for me is that if I OC, I don’t get to make a choice in a force encounter whether or not to bring the gun into play. If someone gets into a physical altercation with me, I don’t have much of a choice but to escalate to deadly force unless I’m really confident in my ability to retain the gun while in a physical altercation. The hand I need to keep on the gun is a hand I can’t use to fight, or to draw defensive spray.

      • JR says:

        I have the same problem with CC.

        If someone (that I can’t easily trip or flip on the ground and roll into cuffing position) gets into a physical altercation with me because they think I’m a defenseless sheep, I don’t have any choice BUT deadly force in a state where I can only carry concealed.

        If I use defensive spray then I give myself an instant sneezing/coughing/watery eye fit just from the aerosol (no direct contact). Fight over, if the aggressor is more resistant to it than me, most violent criminals are.

        I don’t believe any other physical weapon is more effective than a gun (if your mind weapon, using the best pre-altercation strategy and tactics fails you). All less-lethal weapons range from giving a false sense of security to being outright liabilities when used against an active combatant, from what I’ve studied. Where OC is legal, knife carry is often legal as well, and you can be sure I’ll have a fixed blade at hand to slice the hand/wrist that grabs for my retention-holstered gun. But even that I don’t expect a high likelihood of being a fight-stopper.

        I don’t want to give a violent aggressor a fighting chance, at the almost guaranteed risk that I will end up dead or gravely wounded and likely be disarmed of my concealed gun that was patted when I lay incapacitated. If he fights me after having seen my holstered gun, knowing full well I can kill him, then he is a incredibly rare criminal indeed, and may have his death wish granted.

        • Sebastian says:

          You need to have options all the way up the force continuum. Unless you’re old or infirm, If you shoot someone who is unarmed, you’re likely going to trial, at least, and prison at worst. Look at Gerald Ung. Look at the guy that shot kid in Florida. Society is pretty forgiving of shooting someone robbing you or threatening deadly force against you. It is far less forgiving of escalating physical force to deadly force outside the home.

          If you shoot someone, you’re not going to be judged by a jury composed of members of the PAFOA forum. It’s going to be composed of ordinary people who will judge every action in hindsight. Your attorney will have to deal with their prejudices and cultural proclivities of the jury, and speak to them.

          The great thing about less-than-lethal force is that it can be employed early in the confrontation. You can probably get away with spraying someone just for approaching you in an aggressive manner and not yielding to verbal commands to stay away. Even if you can’t get away with it, at most simple assault is a misdemeanor, and not something you’ll likely do prison time over or lose your gun rights over.

          • JR says:

            Well I am infirm. Chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, and allergic/chemically sensitive to just about everything.

            I can reasonably predict that employing less-than-lethal force against the typical attacker (stronger/heavier/more drug-addled than the victim) will guarantee escalation to deadly force, and I will likely lose tragically because the less-lethals worked against me.

            I don’t have the ability to be a Batman-like thinking/fighting machine, nor should anyone be expected to, even if they aren’t old and/or infirm.

            An attempt to gain control of a holstered gun by a criminal is a deadly threat, with a presumption that you will be immediately murdered with it, regardless of the unarmed status of the criminal. This is taught by every law enforcement, military, security, and civilian trainer I’ve ever heard of. It is so deeply ingrained that it should come just short of judicial notice, requiring at most only one expert witness (such as Mas Ayoob) to testify to this, and there should be no rebuttal.

  16. Sebastian says:

    I certainly don’t mind people debating the merits of Open Carry in the comments. All I would ask is that people keep it reasonably civil.

  17. Rydak says:

    The part that I find amazing is the OC crowd, a very small fringe crowd, has a such hostilities for police. Police, by and large, are serious defenders of 2A. (This of course does not always include the large city chiefs or commissioners, as once you rise to that level in law enforcement….your basically a politician and garner little respect from the troops as a free thinking individual.)

    Many police are not only supporters of 2A, but often encounter people who have a CC and also encourage people to do so. With fringe wackjobs like these OC’s running around provoking encounters with police..its very disheartening. Police often get calls for people who let their CC weapon be exposed by accident, and someone calls 911 and when they encounter them, its usually a matter of simple discussion with the citizen, conformation of their permit and onto the next call. Usually ends in a very polite and professional encounter, with all due safety precautions taken by the officer of course. And there are many helpful and professional instructions for citizens on what to do when encountered by an officer and the same for the officers in their training for encounters with cc. I see nothing like this for OC.

    Its seems like, from listening to most of these recordings, that there is no intent of having a polite professional encounter with police when they approach, which is something the OCr’s know is going to happen. Often times, before the officer is even within contact distance the OC’r is yelling out “Are you detaining me!” or some other crap. Followed by a never ending sea of questions to the officer instead of listening to the officer’s questions and then explaining your stance on OC.

    The officer’s response often seems to be one of disbelief… like “WTF”.. I haven’t even introduced myself yet” An then of course the hostilities escalate. As they would in any human encounter structured in such a way.

    As I have said before and will continue to say. There is no credible defense trainer or organization in our nation who supports the idea of OC being a tactically sound principal. I have searched and searched and asked over and over again of the OC’s…..still cant find one. Think there is a reason? I do :)

    • Sebastian says:

      There are cops out there who don’t like citizen carry. They may not be the majority, but they exist. Because someone is OCing, generally speaking, these cops will tend to find carriers. The cop that stopped Fiorino had his dander up from the moment he got out of the car. The encounter started with a grave mistake on the part of the officer.

      Keep in mind it’s questionably legal in Pennsylvania to even stop someone to ask them for their permit. per Supreme Court precedent in this state. It’s certainly not outside of Philadelphia, because carrying openly is just plain legal, with our without an LTC.

  18. Sebastian says:

    I wouldn’t say that OC has no tactical advantage at all. It certainly does. The main tactical advantage is the speed and ease of draw. The reason police OC is because their uniform gives away the fact that they are armed. All concealment would do for a uniformed officer is slow his draw speed in a situation where fractions of a second count.

    • Rydak says:

      Understood on the “advantage of speed” point Sebastian. The point i am making is the “tactically sound” one that you raised above. And to be honest, just MHO, but the “speed” advantage is measured in fractions of a second, nothing that justifies OC…and, if the attackers sees the open weapon, that advantage is lost from the gitgo. Which brings me to the point of “soundness”.

      • Sebastian says:

        Well, there is ease of draw too. I generally find it easier to get the correct grip on an OWB holster than IWB. Though, I know you can carry an OWB concealed.

      • BigAndy1966 says:

        So what are your qualifications? I have a quick question, Why then don’t IDPA and IPSC matches have a concealed draw requirement?

    • mobo says:

      Yeah, but that reasoning applies only to uniformed LEO. Given the rules a mere “civilian” must follow, CC is the only way to go if you want to stay out of trouble.

      • BigAndy1966 says:

        Yes we all must comply with our overlords, submit our rights to the UNINFORMED police officer, in whose opinion is that He doesn’t like open carry, even though it is a LEGAL method of carrying a firearm. And so therefore he will draw his weapon,arrest and detain a law abiding citizen for practicing his right to bear arms without question or infringement, based on either his ignorance or his opinion of the laws he swore to uphold and defend.

        • mobo says:

          Nobody here is more resentful of police “authotity” than me. Search my previous posts.. I am about as anti-cop as one can be. But the fact remains… You cannot retain the tactical advantage of surprise with open carry. And police enjoy the benefit of doubt more than you or me. Thay’s just the way shit is…..

      • Alpheus says:

        This claim that there is no tactical advantage for the non-uniformed carrier is beginning to get on my nerves, so I googled and found this article: http://maineopencarry.org/why.html.

        The writer of this article makes two points, in particular, that are particularly valid for anyone wanting to open cary:

        First, criminals are looking for easy targets. When they see a weapon, that is a good indication that you are going to be a more difficult target than average. When your weapon is concealed, you are increasing the risk that you will have to pull out that weapon, and even to use it!

        Second, as a defender, by default, the element of surprise isn’t going to be that useful! Surprise is an offensive tactic, and if someone is attacking you, a few milliseconds of surprise probably isn’t going to change the outcome all that much, especially when those milliseconds are cancelled out by the extra milliseconds it will take to get your gun out of concealment.

        I would add my own thoughts to open carry: it’s comfortable, so if carrying openly is going to help you carry the gun more, then that’s a good thing! An OC’d gun is more valuable than a gun left at home.

        • Alpheus says:

          Oh, and I would add that OC should be legal, if for no other reason, than to prevent it being illegal to accidentally show your concealed piece. In Texas, for example, it’s illegal to open carry under any circumstances, so you could be in serious legal trouble if the wind blows open your coat, and someone glimpses your piece.

          In the case of Philly, if the cops aren’t recognizing the right to open carry, then yes, I have no problem with creating “stunts” like this, if the person is well-prepared with a lawyer to push things as far as they could go. The fact that this person didn’t push the legal aspects as hard as possible indicates to me that his story of OC’ing by habit, and getting harassed by the cops one too many times, is probably far more true than you’re willing to give it credit for.

          But I have no problem with OC’ers attempting to find the best way to call for their rights to open carry, any more than I have a problem with pro-rights groups marching on the capitol of Illinios to demand reasonable concealed-carry.

          (I would have added this as an amendment to my previous comment, but I discovered that “click to edit” only gives you enough time to correct minor problems. :-)

  19. Rydak says:

    The other issue that alarms me, is that all these anti-gun fanatics are constantly looking for new ways to kill evil guns. I believe they are ideologically challenged and just dead wrong on 2A issues. I do not for a second believe that they are stupid. And as such, I would not be surprised if they see these kids running around with their OC mindset and see it as a very soft target.

    Now it wouldn’t hurt me one bit if they outlawed OC. What it would do is to give the radical gun banners another victory….something they don’t need. And a loss for us….also, something we don’t need.

    The anti’s would likely receive a victory in this area, because, like I said, they are nutjobs, but not stupid. They know that there would be very little support from the 2A defenders on this issue. Lol..unless you count another 15k posts from some of the OCr’s at PAFOA forums as support. And then BAM…there we are, with another gun-grabber waving a victory flag and our 2A rights diminished again, if only in face value.

    We, collectively, are ridding a wave of victory across the nation on 2A rights…looking pretty good right now. ..right now.

    • BigAndy1966 says:

      “Now it wouldn’t hurt me one bit if they outlawed OC.” So you are Okay with them banning a legal method of carrying a firearm just because in your opinion you are not comfortable with it and you believe it just draws unwanted attention? Have you ever open carried? Never ventured over to the dark side? You should try it. Its a truly liberating feeling.
      The average persons situational awareness is really extremely low. It rarely gets noticed.Probably 95% don’t even realize its there. Most people who have noticed it, like 2.5%% have never even mentioned it. 2% will say Hey nice gun, is that legal? and .5% will make a smart assed remark about how in their opinion only concealed carry should be legal or cops are the only people who should have guns.

    • Alpheus says:

      In Texas, it’s illegal to carry open, period. If the wind blows and exposes that gun under your coat, you could find yourself in legal hot water for a gun that you otherwise was legally carrying.

      So, yes, Open Carry should be legal. We should be pushing for all of our rights to be recognized, not just the ones we like!

  20. jay says:

    “Ask them how much training they have and you’ll be sadly disappointed. Too many of them turn 21, buy a gun and “strap on” their new toy with little or no training. They ran a poll at PAFOA once and the number of OCers and CCers without any professional training was alarming. I’d like to see a new poll over there to see how much PROFESSIONAL training these people have”

    Sorry but you can’t even begin to start trying to use this in any argument against OC considering that there are far more CCers with zero training than there are OCers.

    I carry both CC and OC depending on which i feel like doing as well as what sidearm i am carrying that day. I most likely have more training than most of the people posting here.

    Now while i do OC at times i do not support those that go out looking for attention or to start a confrontation.

    Making a personal verbal attack on people on here for the way they choose to carry or what they choose to believe makes you look like more of an idiot than anyone else on here. and if that’s the only way you can try and make a point then please disarm yourself and go back to high school as you have no business carrying a weapon at all.

    The CC vs OC argument has been going on for years. I both agree and disagree with opinions from both sides. That doesn’t mean nor will either side ever be completely right.

    the gun owners need to get along and stick together either way. because in-fighting with each other is not going to get anyone anywhere.

    have a pleasant day

    • Sebastian says:

      I’ve seen OC folks who carry themselves well, and who I wouldn’t mind at all representing gun owners to the uninitiated. I do think there can be such a thing as smart activism using open carry. I also don’t bemoan anyone their choice of carry method, nor do I think OC should be unlawful.

      But one thing that makes me wary of promoting OC is that it is a practice that can attract people who are, to put it mildly, people who want the attention. I also think there’s a risk in the Internet community of pleasing a group of peers within an Internet sub-community, to the detriment of what people outside that peer group think. This is certainly not something that is very specific to OC, since this can apply to Internet sub-communities on any issue, but it’s something that concerns me in regards to OC.

      So I wouldn’t join the other voices here in saying that anyone who wants to OC is just attention whoring. I don’t think that’s the case. I also know plenty of people who OC that don’t fit some of the stereotypes bandied about in this comment thread. But the fact is that OC, being that it’s unusual, is bound to attract the attention of people, and that fact is bound to attract types who seek that kind of attention, especially if it can bring admiration and praise from an online peer group.

      My desire for people that want to OC, because it’s more comfortable, or because they prefer the fast draw, or whatever reason, is that they get like Nike and just do it. It’s your right. But I think the idea that it’s doing wonderful things for the general public’s support of the Second Amendment, gun ownership and carrying is a fanciful notion. I’m not sure it hurts, but I’m not sure it helps either.

      If you take the attention seekers, and throw a mission to save gun rights for all on top of that tendency, I think it’s a recipe for problems down the road. There are places and situations where someone carrying a firearm in the open is going to rub most people the wrong way, and in those situations I think discretion is called for. Some OCers get that, and some don’t. I worry about the people that don’t.

      • Alpheus says:

        I think the “OC Movement” crowd is likely to attract the attention-whores, if for no other reason than it’s the most observable way to practice your Second Amendment right.

        Indeed, in the situation that Mobo and Mike keep pulling our attention to–that of Kalifornia–that’s pretty much the only way you could practice your right! (The weapons had to be unloaded, to boot!) And given how restrictive Kalifornia has become, I cannot help but sympathise with them. It really was the only option they had, to call attention to their plight. And, strategically, their actions may in the end work out for the best: they have pushed Kalifornia over the edge, and may have shot themselves in the foot judicially.

        Well, now I suppose they could wear empty holsters, to illustrate how unarmed they have become…but that isn’t the same thing, is it?

        I don’t see why the issue is all that important in Pennsylvania, with the exception of places like Philly. I would expect that OC in most of the State would be a little weird, but not “Run to the hills he has a gun!” weird.

        And certainly, in places like Alaska, Arizona and Utah, (aka the Western States), attempting to open carry guns for attention probably isn’t going to work!

    • David says:

      Gun owners would get along fine of some of the rights warriors would stop doing stupid stuff.

      • Alpheus says:

        Sometimes the greatest challenge in “getting along” is figuring out how to get along with those people we find stupid and dense. While I see the value in questioning the strategy of the “Open Carry for our Rights” movement, I see no reason why we can’t just shake our heads, tell them “You’re going about it wrong!” and after a long conversation, end it with, “So, what kind of piece do you carry? A 1911? What kind of dolt would carry a 1911?!?” * :-)

        (* I say this, full well knowing about the Holy War between 1911 affectionados and Everyone Else; indeed, I’d probably consider myself a 1911 person myself…)

  21. Sebastian says:

    I should also probably pipe in here with a comment on the political climate that supports legalized carry.

    If you poll the general public, about half support some degree of right-to-carry. Last time I saw a poll, it was just a bit over half. Only about 3-4% of the population actually get a license to carry. Of those, a much smaller percentage carry regularly. Most people I know, who are not seriously into the issue, carry when they are going somewhere, like the city, that they may run into trouble. They aren’t carrying on a daily basis. I think that’s foolish, but it’s what most permit holders do.

    So really, about 1% of the population, or thereabouts, have won on the carry issue because they acted as a determined minority, and acquiescence from the public at large made it possible for a determined minority to win. But the key in this was acquiescence from the public at large. While there are certainly opponents of right-to-carry, the ones that match are determination are a handful of people; as best I can tell maybe 20-30 individuals in a large metro area.

    What you really don’t want to do is engage in behavior that risks the acquiescence necessary to maintain the current political climate. There are a lot of people out there who don’t really like guns, but because they aren’t confronted with the idea on a regular basis, they don’t bother getting involved in the issue politically. What you really don’t want is for those people to suddenly start writing their representative, and voting on the gun issue, because they saw someone carrying a gun at the Chuck-E-Chesse their kid was having a birthday party at. The more people get involved against us that are motivated, the harder things will get for us.

    History is made by determined minorities, for most of the past decade, that’s only been us. The gun control supporters are either left-wing fanatics, or people who are grieving loss, and they are a very very small minority compared to us. I’d hate to give people not motivated now to join that a reason to.

  22. Guest says:

    Sebastian,
    Gresham’s Law (bad money drives out good) applies to all human endeavor. If you won’t delete ad hominem posts (this thread being a prime example), you are going to be trolled to death.
    Anarchy doesn’t work!

    • Sebastian says:

      I’m generally pretty loathe to delete people’s comments… but I’ll shut the thread down if my request to keep things civil is not heeded.

  23. JR says:

    Coulda’ sworn there was a comment on here about open carriers going into a gang-infested neighborhood and getting disarmed. If it was removed, good. God forbid concealed carriers fly in the face of common sense and go armed in places they wouldn’t go unarmed.

    The greatest threat of disarmament to open carriers is police, even where COTUS isn’t printed on toilet paper by the government. Good luck finding statistically significant proof otherwise.

    Every concealed carry class I know of teaches that if you draw from concealment, it should ONLY be to exercise immediate deadly force. I have no desire to appear a sheep to criminals and take even the slight risk (handgun wound mortality rate-wise) of having to surprise kill them.

    Extremely heightened situational awareness only goes so far in communicating to criminals your level of preparedness. Unless you constantly wear a piece of clothing while you concealed carry that says something to the effect of “I’m Armed; Violent Criminals Will Be Shot” then the force scale is already maxed out before your weapon comes into view of the criminal, and it can only come into view a split second before he sees a muzzle flash.

    Stopping/deterring crime, not ending criminals’ lives, should be the prime directive of the law-abiding gun owner, to be violated only if the force scale has been maxed out. Considering most criminals don’t have a death wish, and most gun owners don’t have a justifiable homicide wish, open carry decreases the likelihood of both.

    • Sebastian says:

      I have not deleted any comments, and very very rarely do.

    • Rydak says:

      I work in a place that could be described as a “hood” and yea, to OC there would not deter criminals at all. It would embolden them. Almost like a challenge, specially if it was a nice expensive gun. Although it would not be that much of a challenge. Just wait till your looking the other way, SMACK!..bend down and pick the gun off your unconscious limp body. And now, they have something more valuable than money or drugs. Prob wouldn’t even shift thru your pockets for money…don’t need it. They got something better.

      But hey, to each his own I guess. Wont matter soon anyway. I’m sure a few more of these stunts and it wont be long before the gun grabber fanatics come along an ban OC. And there wont be much resistance from the NRA or 2AF. They won;t waste millions fighting to defend a practice that is not instructed/trained or advised by any credible self-defense expert or institution.

      • JR says:

        Are you flying in the face of common sense, then?

        I say this with all sincerity: I do NOT want to see lone, law-abiding gun owners getting themselves killed because they think carrying guns in any fashion in hostile territory can protect their lives.

        If they want to make you a victim, you are one, they are many. Stop acting like arrogant/borderline suicidal superheroes, and either stay the hell out of places you wouldn’t go unarmed alone, or use the power of the militia if you must incur in hostile territory.

        • Rydak says:

          Sounds good. Or you could just cover it up and not drawn good or bad atten to yourself. Just a thought…

          • JR says:

            Being a law-abiding citizen in a criminal-controlled territory draws all the “attention” you need to be selected as a victim. Don’t get yourself killed; your concealed gun will NOT help you when you’re surrounded by criminals.

    • Alpheus says:

      There was a comment somewhere to that effect, and there are too many comments for me to go back to figure out which one it was. But, yeah, my reaction to the comment was “Open or Concealed, what the heck are you doing in a neighborhood like that in the first place?!?”.

      • mobo says:

        That was my comment. And I was trying to stress the point that REAL “gangstaz” will beat your ass and take your gun. Concealed or OC, if your gun is not already in your hand before they’re on top of you, you are fucked. OC only draws their attention to you as a target for robbery. Of course I wasn’t saying that people should walk around the ghetto just because they’re armed.

        Keep in mind that some people live or work in the ghetto. Sometimes ghetto people swarm center city like a plague of locusts and terrorize innocent people. Avoiding ghetto-ness is not always an option for all of us.

        • Alpheus says:

          Even so, you make it sound like if you go into the ghetto, you’re guaranteed to lose your weapon, so you’d better carry it concealed, to make it more difficult for the “gangstaz” to find it.

          I think the advantages of concealed carry are somewhat exaggerated, as are the dangers of open carry (and probably vice-versa). Ultimately, I see no reason why no one should look at the pros and cons–up to and including things like “Am I making a statement when I do this?”, “Do I want to make a statement?” and “Will that statement really help things along?”–and then make a decision from there.

          Granted, some of us are going to wonder about the rationality of the concluding decision, but then, the 1st and 2nd Amendments are there to protect such decisions.

          That, people make good decisions far more often than we sometimes give them credit for!

  24. Valorius says:

    I actually open carry in the ghetto all the time. Amazingly, no one has ever attempted to grab at my gun in any way.

    Most don’t even notice it, and those that do just ask lots of enthusiastic questions. Even in the hood.

    The “Don’t do that in the ghetto” opinion is flat out wrong. (I’ve been working the worst ghettos of Philly and Chester for over 15 years)

    • JR says:

      Those who effectively claim non-LEO open carriers are getting their guns grabbed at constantly but can’t back it up with evidence will dismiss your personal experience because it doesn’t support their narrative.

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