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Interesting HR822 Legal Questions

Andy from the comments asks, “Does HR 822 allow me to take my “high capacity” magazine to New York? Hmm… hadn’t thought about that.” That’s a good question. From my reading of the language of HR822, That’s rather questionable. Also, it would be questionable whether it would be legal, for instance, to carry hollow point ammunition in New Jersey under HR822. My feeling on both counts is that no, that you would have to abide by both the magazine limits and rules regarding hollow points, as would a resident of  both those jurisdictions.

The other side of that coin would be an argument that the law authorizes the carry of a handgun, regardless of “eligibility to possess or carry” the state may require, provided that you are not prohibited by federal law from gun possession, and have a valid license to carry. Therefore the language makes you qualified to carry a handgun, which would also, naturally, include magazines and ammunition.

I think the argument that you have to abide by rules on magazines and ammunition type is much stronger than the latter argument. If HR822 does pass, you might want to stick with New York, California, and New Jersey law on magazine capacity, and also New Jersey’s law on hollow-point bullets.

29 Responses to “Interesting HR822 Legal Questions”

  1. PhilaBOR says:

    I don’t see how you could have it any other way than when in Jersey, follow Jersey’s laws (and NY, etc.) Imagine having a Minnesota permit, going to Jersey and expecting the cops to know you’re from Minnesota, knowing the Minnesota laws and applying them. The local laws will apply, right or wrong.

  2. harp1034 says:

    Does anyone really expect this to become law? I forgot who is in the White House? Is the President on or side or is he anti-gun?

  3. Andy says:

    Given this language:

    The possession or carrying of a concealed hand-
    gun in a State under this section shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry

    I think I can take my high cap mags into New Jersey, though hollow point bullets could be questionable. But given the language explicitly says “handgun” and even singles out “machine guns”, if my state permit allowed carry of rifles or knives or other weapons, those would not be allowed.

    • Sebastian says:

      I don’t read it that way at all. It only covers carrying handguns, not other weapons. A more probable assertion is you have to follow the states magazine rules, since the law is silent on that, and people carrying in the state with permits are under that rule as well.

      • Andy says:

        A magazine is integral and necessary for the operation of an auto-loader. In fact, I don’t know of any auto-loaders that are sold without them. If magazines aren’t covered under the language, what’s to stop a state from simply banning them for all but holders of their state license?

        • Sebastian says:

          I think there’s a better case for magazines. If they did that it wouldn’t apply to their own people, so there would be a much better case it’s federally preempted.

          • Charlie Given says:

            I don’t beleive the possession of high-cap mags to be illegal in NY. You just can’t buy them in the state anymore. Owning them is still legal.

    • Nick L. EMT-P says:

      i have a better question.

      will i be able to carry here at home in nyc with my florida ccw? i don’t have a nyc ccw (impossible to get; i do have a premise/target) but neither is nyc a “not issue state”.

      • Charlie Given says:

        The law only applies to out of state residents. In state residents would still need to have thier own states permits.

  4. Link P says:

    I will stick to the free states as much as possible until the ridiculous prohibitions are stricken from the New York, California, and New Jersey law books.

  5. Cargosquid says:

    Man….just think how simple our laws would be if we could get the lawmakers to..you know…follow the actual words in the Constitution.

    Shall not be infringed

  6. BigHayden says:

    I thought HR822 was pretty clear that you would be legal to carry in NJ just as if you have a NJ permit to carry. Magazines with a capacity over 15 rounds are patently illegal in NJ, and having an NJ PTC does not change that, so you still have to abide by the magazine restrictions. Same goes for HP ammo. NJ does not allow anyone to carry with HP ammo except active LEO. Even the retired LEOs have to carry FMJs.

    FWIW, NJ politicians (and most residents) believe that HP ammo is “vest buster” “cop killer” ammo and has no other purpose. After all, why else would it be banned by the Geneva Convention? (I know, it was the Hague that banned HP ammo for military use, but I’m trying to illustrate the thought process of the average NJ jackass.)

  7. Matthew Carberry says:

    If NJ et al go to “ban magazines” in their state they’d start running into Const. problems, they’d be better off trying to repeal their carry law.

    If they push for a lower than the existing 10-round count mag rule they’d piss off their own gunowners as well as destroying their claim they are just for “reasonable restrictions”. The anti-gunners themselves set the bar, locally and nationally, of “10 = reasonable”; to change it now would make them hypocrites and expose their true position as wanting bans.

    It’ll be a pain for folks who want to carry in Jersey to get a NJ set of 10 rounders and expanding flat point or whatever, but as noted it’d be unrealistic to expect the local cops to know that you are abiding by your own laws on mags and ammo.

    This relatively minor detail seems like something to fix later (or let be fixed by the feared “race to the bottom” ;) ).

  8. Jame says:

    What about Mass’s 4,000lb trigger pull requirements? And what about California’s ‘authorized firearms’ list requirements?

  9. Rob K says:

    I had the same thought about New Jersey and hollow points. My carry ammo is illegal there. I’m still going to stay out of New Jersey, New York, and California, though there are plenty of other states that this law would open up to me.

  10. Sean says:

    I have some scruples with all this. We hear all the time to be law abiding, even when we find some laws absurd. I understand the general motivation – we don’t want CCW holders showing up on the nightly news in a bad light. It hurts our cause, etc.

    But here’s the thing – if magically a critical mass of these oppressed populations began to defy the laws, eventually the powers that be would be forced to concede.

    If we could 2/3 of NY population to carry 30 rnd mags, as many NJ residents to load JHP ammo, and something equivalent in CA – we wouldn’t need NRA lobbyists.

    Anyone with me, or are we only going to add $1.00 to our order at midwayusa and hope democracy turns in our favor?

    • Right Wing Wacko says:

      And what is that critical mass? That sure hasn’t worked for those that want drugs legalized… how many of them are in jail right now?

      • A Critic says:

        The rise in the number of drug users has surely greatly exceeded the rise in the number of people in prison for drugs. There’s now a head shop on Main Street here in small town America, and it’s only slightly controversial amongst a certain subset of the older population.

      • Pyrotek85 says:

        Good point on the drug war. The danger of doing this is it can become another cash cow. They know pot isn’t any more dangerous than alcohol, it’s not about safety but money at this point.

        NJ bans HP ammo not because it makes us super duper deadly, but because they’re trying to discourage gun ownership, and if they start making money on fines and sentencing, it might be even harder to change then.

        I agree with Sean on principle, but I don’t think enough people are willing to make a stand and become felons on an issue like this.

        • Sebastian says:

          The state generally makes money off minor crimes, where you don’t have an expensive trial with incarceration. The hollow point law is a felony count for every round. You’ll do real time if you’re caught carrying them in NJ. That’ll wipe out the financial incentive for the state.

    • Sebastian says:

      They’ll just jail the ones they catch, or single someone out and make an example of them if you flaunt it openly. Civil Disobedience has a place, but you’re not going to get laws like the ones you speak of overturned through civil disobedience. I’m willing to do a lot for this cause, but going to jail for no good done in the end is not one of them.

  11. A Critic says:

    I was thinking about this. Should HR 822 pass then I foresee a rise in sales of ten round magazines and larger caliber/smaller capacity weapons. Me, I’m leaning towards a Ruger Alaskan in .454 with Buffalo Bores .45 Colt wadcutters.

  12. Jim W says:

    “shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry … that apply to the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun by residents of the State or political subdivision who are licensed by the State or political subdivision to do so”

    So basically it’s permission to carry as if you had a license in the area that you are in. Which means no large cap magazines in CA, no unregistered handguns in NYC, no WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE. Ahh wait, this paragraph from higher up controls:

    “may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce”

    So basically you can bring your gun with you and carry it unless it is a subgun or a sawed off shotgun. Supremacy clause means that you aren’t subject to local registration laws, restrictions on weapon type etc that would conflict with the plain language of this law. The first part only applies to “conditions and limitations” that apply to the act of carrying itself.

    • Andy says:

      I agree with you but qualify:

      So basically you can bring your gun with you and carry it unless it is a subgun or a sawed off shotgun.

      Handguns only. No long guns of any type. Nothing NFA. No knives. No throwing stars or other ninja gear.

  13. Roberta X says:

    Okay, show of hands: who here actually believes a throwing star is a real weapon?

    Geez. I’d rather have a sharp stick. Those things are only good for two things: 1. Scaring legislators into outlawing. 2. Impressing young boys who think they are “kewl.”

  14. JimB says:

    How ironic… If this passes into law I’ll be able to carry in NY with my Florida Non-res but not in NJ where I live. No matter what I see a lot of people being arrested in both places if they are packing. They may not be convicted of anything but between the lawyers and lost job time they’ll wish they stayed the hell out of both places.

  15. Patrick says:

    I have spoken to the sponsors’ aides, and the intent was not to upend state laws beyond reciprocity. I won’t bore you with deep details, but we spoke specifically about NJ ammo, etc.

    You need to abide by the local state provisions (except for eligibility for the permit). They know the bill is imperfect, and told me (and our members) point blank: “There will be test cases.”

    Do yourself a favor and don’t be one.

    Put your time and energy into your state organizations. They are becoming more influential each day. This in one bill. We will get more bites at the apple.

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