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	<title>Comments on: ATF Seizes Airsoft Guns</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-58005</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-58005</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the Muzzies!!! A sneaky way to get around full auto sales and get one they can modify to full auto. And the create havoc in this Country!!!

Where did I put my Thorazine??? OK, found it!!

Gulp.

I&#039;m better now!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the Muzzies!!! A sneaky way to get around full auto sales and get one they can modify to full auto. And the create havoc in this Country!!!</p>
<p>Where did I put my Thorazine??? OK, found it!!</p>
<p>Gulp.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m better now!</p>
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		<title>By: Skeptic</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57966</link>
		<dc:creator>Skeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57966</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s what the importer says on their website:
http://airsoftoutletnw.com/index.php/20100226156/Airsoft-News/Airsoft-An-Industry-Without-Standard.html 

&quot;Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:

    * The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
    * The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
    * The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
    * The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn&#039;t operable with the WE TTI lower.


So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what the importer says on their website:<br />
<a href="http://airsoftoutletnw.com/index.php/20100226156/Airsoft-News/Airsoft-An-Industry-Without-Standard.html" rel="nofollow">http://airsoftoutletnw.com/index.php/20100226156/Airsoft-News/Airsoft-An-Industry-Without-Standard.html</a> </p>
<p>&#8220;Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:</p>
<p>    * The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4<br />
    * The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt<br />
    * The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work<br />
    * The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn&#8217;t operable with the WE TTI lower.</p>
<p>So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Argent</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57965</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Argent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57965</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s the attitude that had me wondering if an effective airgun in .38 caliber or better could be built (looks likely); just to piss off the PTB in NJ. (The law says an airgun, spring gun, etc of less than 3/8 in and capable of injury is a firearm).

OTOH, given that it&#039;s NJ, the courts could just up and decide the legislature didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;mean&lt;/i&gt; to exclude larger caliber airguns...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s the attitude that had me wondering if an effective airgun in .38 caliber or better could be built (looks likely); just to piss off the PTB in NJ. (The law says an airgun, spring gun, etc of less than 3/8 in and capable of injury is a firearm).</p>
<p>OTOH, given that it&#8217;s NJ, the courts could just up and decide the legislature didn&#8217;t <i>mean</i> to exclude larger caliber airguns&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Quote of the Day: Government Relations &#124; Snowflakes in Hell</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57960</link>
		<dc:creator>Quote of the Day: Government Relations &#124; Snowflakes in Hell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57960</guid>
		<description>[...] From Diomed, in the comments: Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] From Diomed, in the comments: Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57959</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57959</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to.&lt;/i&gt;

This is truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Yes. They’re there to say “no”, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can’t say no to.</i></p>
<p>This is truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Diomed</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57958</link>
		<dc:creator>Diomed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57958</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s awful generous to the government, which I presume is what you meant.&quot;

Yes. They&#039;re there to say &quot;no&quot;, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can&#039;t say no to.

They&#039;ve actually been in the process of putting together a procedures manual for the last several years, thank the NFATCA for getting that going. Though I&#039;ll believe it when I see it - simply because when there are defined procedures, that makes it much easier for the scum, er public, to come up with ways to circumvent them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s awful generous to the government, which I presume is what you meant.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. They&#8217;re there to say &#8220;no&#8221;, not to help you. Victory is figuring out a way to do something they can&#8217;t say no to.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve actually been in the process of putting together a procedures manual for the last several years, thank the NFATCA for getting that going. Though I&#8217;ll believe it when I see it &#8211; simply because when there are defined procedures, that makes it much easier for the scum, er public, to come up with ways to circumvent them.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Argent</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57952</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Argent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57952</guid>
		<description>The thing is, with a 2x4 and a dremel tool, in an hour I could have a shoulder stock for *any* handgun. 8 hours and some additional hardware lets me have a *good* one.

SBS/SBR would seem to be an artifact of regulating handguns tighter than longarms. Consequently, converting a longarm to a &quot;handgun&quot; (easily concealable firearm) must be especially restricted. Given that as of Heller, handguns are protected arms, this suggests that the SBS/SBR restrictions of the GCA are particularly subject to legal challenge. Basis could be that putting a stock on a handgun makes it more accurate at home, and therefore more useful as a home-defense arm (taking out SBR); and that shortening a shotgun makes it more handy in the home, ditto (taking out SBS).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, with a 2&#215;4 and a dremel tool, in an hour I could have a shoulder stock for *any* handgun. 8 hours and some additional hardware lets me have a *good* one.</p>
<p>SBS/SBR would seem to be an artifact of regulating handguns tighter than longarms. Consequently, converting a longarm to a &#8220;handgun&#8221; (easily concealable firearm) must be especially restricted. Given that as of Heller, handguns are protected arms, this suggests that the SBS/SBR restrictions of the GCA are particularly subject to legal challenge. Basis could be that putting a stock on a handgun makes it more accurate at home, and therefore more useful as a home-defense arm (taking out SBR); and that shortening a shotgun makes it more handy in the home, ditto (taking out SBS).</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Markle</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57950</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Markle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57950</guid>
		<description>Exactly Ian...it&#039;s just like the current GSG-5 SD barrel shroud issue.  Anyone who would have the intent and skills to convert the shroud into a suppressor would also be able to add a friggin&#039; tube if it was needed.  Anything is theoretically POSSIBLE if no limits are imposed, the rules usually state that the item cannot be &quot;easily&quot; converted.  Neither the SD or the airsoft cases I&#039;ve seen were technically impossible but they were exceedingly difficult and generally required more effort and expense than made any sort of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly Ian&#8230;it&#8217;s just like the current GSG-5 SD barrel shroud issue.  Anyone who would have the intent and skills to convert the shroud into a suppressor would also be able to add a friggin&#8217; tube if it was needed.  Anything is theoretically POSSIBLE if no limits are imposed, the rules usually state that the item cannot be &#8220;easily&#8221; converted.  Neither the SD or the airsoft cases I&#8217;ve seen were technically impossible but they were exceedingly difficult and generally required more effort and expense than made any sort of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Argent</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57949</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Argent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57949</guid>
		<description>Interesting...

And, 8 hrs in a machine shop? Then everyone with a 2x4 and a handgun is in constructive possession of a SBR; along with everyone with a rifle!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting&#8230;</p>
<p>And, 8 hrs in a machine shop? Then everyone with a 2&#215;4 and a handgun is in constructive possession of a SBR; along with everyone with a rifle!</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Markle</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2010/02/25/atf-seizes-airsoft-guns/#comment-57942</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Markle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=16953#comment-57942</guid>
		<description>(Same post done at SayUncle)

At SHOT Show we were looking at all of the airsoft offerings with an eye towards tactical training purposes. We talked to the guys at KWA extensively concerning some of their higher-end guns which were very, very realistic. Literally when breaking them down the resemblance to an actual AR rifle was incredible right down to the bolt and recoil system. That said, they assured us that they had to have their lowers approved by the ATF and that while everything looked very similar, it would be nearly impossible to alter the lowers to accept an AR upper and that the materials certainly were not rated to withstand live fire stresses. The magazine well is too small, the holes are in the wrong location, and the take pin holes are not even close (we all know that even a few hundredths of an inch is a HUGE difference for something like this.)

With the amount of work involved it would be FAR easier and FAR cheaper (the high-end airsofts can run $600+) to buy an 80% receiver and simply do the work if that were one’s inclination…and anybody with the skills and knowledge to do the work would KNOW that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Same post done at SayUncle)</p>
<p>At SHOT Show we were looking at all of the airsoft offerings with an eye towards tactical training purposes. We talked to the guys at KWA extensively concerning some of their higher-end guns which were very, very realistic. Literally when breaking them down the resemblance to an actual AR rifle was incredible right down to the bolt and recoil system. That said, they assured us that they had to have their lowers approved by the ATF and that while everything looked very similar, it would be nearly impossible to alter the lowers to accept an AR upper and that the materials certainly were not rated to withstand live fire stresses. The magazine well is too small, the holes are in the wrong location, and the take pin holes are not even close (we all know that even a few hundredths of an inch is a HUGE difference for something like this.)</p>
<p>With the amount of work involved it would be FAR easier and FAR cheaper (the high-end airsofts can run $600+) to buy an 80% receiver and simply do the work if that were one’s inclination…and anybody with the skills and knowledge to do the work would KNOW that!</p>
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