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	<title>Comments on: Mr. Gura Goes to Reno</title>
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	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49656</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49656</guid>
		<description>I read Gura&#039;s arguements about  machine guns in the Heller case and I was not impressed. He gave away that  which was not relevant to  Heller core specifics. The US attorney was concerned about the implication to the 1934 law with the Circuit Ct  opinion and wanted the scope of the Heller decsion not to undermine the 1934 law.

  I thougt that  Gura accepted the assumed position that  machines guns was poisonous to the case so  he agree that  it was acceptable for those to  be taxed  and regulated as they are under the 1934 law.

 Gura is young  and inexerienced and that  showed in the verbal  arguments. He won  becasue he was meticulous and presented a good case with  good plaintiffs and was helped by the justices.

 Gura and Levy  who funded the case were motivated by the civil rights travesty that was DC  law.  However Gura is not a as passionate  devotee to gun rights as  many of us are.

 I accepted the incremental  approach to push back against bad law. But the best  method is to have the  rights so accepted  that  those laws never get enacted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Gura&#8217;s arguements about  machine guns in the Heller case and I was not impressed. He gave away that  which was not relevant to  Heller core specifics. The US attorney was concerned about the implication to the 1934 law with the Circuit Ct  opinion and wanted the scope of the Heller decsion not to undermine the 1934 law.</p>
<p>  I thougt that  Gura accepted the assumed position that  machines guns was poisonous to the case so  he agree that  it was acceptable for those to  be taxed  and regulated as they are under the 1934 law.</p>
<p> Gura is young  and inexerienced and that  showed in the verbal  arguments. He won  becasue he was meticulous and presented a good case with  good plaintiffs and was helped by the justices.</p>
<p> Gura and Levy  who funded the case were motivated by the civil rights travesty that was DC  law.  However Gura is not a as passionate  devotee to gun rights as  many of us are.</p>
<p> I accepted the incremental  approach to push back against bad law. But the best  method is to have the  rights so accepted  that  those laws never get enacted.</p>
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		<title>By: Snowflakes in Hell &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Good Ideas, Bad Ideas, and How to Tell the Difference</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49627</link>
		<dc:creator>Snowflakes in Hell &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Good Ideas, Bad Ideas, and How to Tell the Difference</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49627</guid>
		<description>[...] a lot of interesting talk in the comments of my Alan Gura report about how one defines good ideas, bad ideas, and who gets to decide this? I think it would be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a lot of interesting talk in the comments of my Alan Gura report about how one defines good ideas, bad ideas, and who gets to decide this? I think it would be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Freeholder</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49616</link>
		<dc:creator>The Freeholder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49616</guid>
		<description>Sebastian, I understand your point, but how are we to judge what is a &quot;good idea&quot; vs. what is a &quot;bad idea&quot;?  As I recall, Heller was roundly condemned (at one point) by the NRA as a bad idea, and it&#039;s turned out to be a shining victory.

One of the hardest problems about fighting for the Second via the courts is that so often the defendants are not choirboys.  If we let every one of them go by without contesting the points, doesn&#039;t it make the fight more difficult when it is finally joined?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sebastian, I understand your point, but how are we to judge what is a &#8220;good idea&#8221; vs. what is a &#8220;bad idea&#8221;?  As I recall, Heller was roundly condemned (at one point) by the NRA as a bad idea, and it&#8217;s turned out to be a shining victory.</p>
<p>One of the hardest problems about fighting for the Second via the courts is that so often the defendants are not choirboys.  If we let every one of them go by without contesting the points, doesn&#8217;t it make the fight more difficult when it is finally joined?</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49576</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49576</guid>
		<description>Everybody is somebody else&#039;s extremist.  Like I said, I don&#039;t think Gura was talking about your run of the mill NRA member, so much as the folks out there who are actively promoting bad ideas, advancing poor cases through the courts, and doing other such things.  It&#039;s also not that I think Gura, as a civil rights activists, is suggesting these people have to be shut up, but that their bad ideas need to be countered with good ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everybody is somebody else&#8217;s extremist.  Like I said, I don&#8217;t think Gura was talking about your run of the mill NRA member, so much as the folks out there who are actively promoting bad ideas, advancing poor cases through the courts, and doing other such things.  It&#8217;s also not that I think Gura, as a civil rights activists, is suggesting these people have to be shut up, but that their bad ideas need to be countered with good ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Sperry</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49574</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Sperry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49574</guid>
		<description>Long time reader, first time commenter here; thanks for a great story Sebastian. What caught my notice was the comment about extremists etc. Like others, I have to wonder who decides who gets that label? Last week out at the range, another shooter called me an extremist because I&#039;m a member of Gun Owners of America. He failed to note that I&#039;m also a Life member of the NRA (shoulder patch, and sticker on my truck), even as he roundly expounded on the greatness of the NRA... I asked him why he was an NRA member, and his response was that he supported the Second Amendment. When I asked him why he didn&#039;t support the entire Constitution and Bill of Rights he looked flabbergasted. I asked him to look up ex post facto law,and the NRA&#039;s support of it, and then get back to me. So? If I am some sort of weirdo extremist, then so be it.

Keep up the good work, we need more people just like you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long time reader, first time commenter here; thanks for a great story Sebastian. What caught my notice was the comment about extremists etc. Like others, I have to wonder who decides who gets that label? Last week out at the range, another shooter called me an extremist because I&#8217;m a member of Gun Owners of America. He failed to note that I&#8217;m also a Life member of the NRA (shoulder patch, and sticker on my truck), even as he roundly expounded on the greatness of the NRA&#8230; I asked him why he was an NRA member, and his response was that he supported the Second Amendment. When I asked him why he didn&#8217;t support the entire Constitution and Bill of Rights he looked flabbergasted. I asked him to look up ex post facto law,and the NRA&#8217;s support of it, and then get back to me. So? If I am some sort of weirdo extremist, then so be it.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work, we need more people just like you!</p>
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		<title>By: DirtCrashr</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49521</link>
		<dc:creator>DirtCrashr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49521</guid>
		<description>My take from listening to him is that he&#039;s a Civil Rights lawyer who wants to win court cases and build precedent to overturn even more unfair anti-rights laws.  He&#039;s not a politician running for office, or a Medical Doctor seeking to cure whole diseased political system.  The bad suits and bad cases make his work harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My take from listening to him is that he&#8217;s a Civil Rights lawyer who wants to win court cases and build precedent to overturn even more unfair anti-rights laws.  He&#8217;s not a politician running for office, or a Medical Doctor seeking to cure whole diseased political system.  The bad suits and bad cases make his work harder.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49520</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49520</guid>
		<description>I used to think that too, but there are egomaniacs out there with kooky ideas, that like to push those kooky ideas forward at the expense of good ideas.  You can&#039;t have peaceful coexistence when the existing of a bad strategy threatens a good one.  You have to condemn the bad strategy.  Various people, including Dave Kopel, Halbrook, and numerous others criticized Silviera, but Gorski went ahead with it anyway and lost.  What saved us from true disaster was the Supreme Court refusing to take it.

And that&#039;s not even mentioning that a lot of the egomaniacs out there enjoy throwing rocks at people who do effective work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to think that too, but there are egomaniacs out there with kooky ideas, that like to push those kooky ideas forward at the expense of good ideas.  You can&#8217;t have peaceful coexistence when the existing of a bad strategy threatens a good one.  You have to condemn the bad strategy.  Various people, including Dave Kopel, Halbrook, and numerous others criticized Silviera, but Gorski went ahead with it anyway and lost.  What saved us from true disaster was the Supreme Court refusing to take it.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s not even mentioning that a lot of the egomaniacs out there enjoy throwing rocks at people who do effective work.</p>
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		<title>By: The Freeholder</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49518</link>
		<dc:creator>The Freeholder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49518</guid>
		<description>I disagree.  I think that we&#039;re all our own biggest enemy.  As a group, we keep taking our eye off the goal, and taking too much time out from pursuing that goal to call each other names when we have legitimate differences of opinion on how to best reach it.

For example, although I&#039;m not a lawyer and don&#039;t play one on TV (nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night), I disagree with Mr. Gura on his treatment of the issue of automatic weapons during the Heller arguments.  I&#039;ve read his explanation, and I believe that he could have answered that question in a way that had less of a &quot;throw that one under the bus&quot; flavor.

However, he did engineer an incredibly big win, and I salute him for that.  With some luck and a lot of hard work, it will be the foundation for many successful lawsuits to come.

I&#039;m not that familiar with Gorski or the arguments for or against his approach to litigating 2nd Amendment suits.  (I do hold that Silveria brought us one of the best quotes on the true nature of the 2nd in history.)  However, l&#039;m not going to take too much time from my work for the 2nd in order to bash him, either.  

Like I said, we really need to keep our eye on the goal.  We all need to cooperate in reaching it and realize that there will be times when we won&#039;t, and not allow those instances to become destructive to the overall effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree.  I think that we&#8217;re all our own biggest enemy.  As a group, we keep taking our eye off the goal, and taking too much time out from pursuing that goal to call each other names when we have legitimate differences of opinion on how to best reach it.</p>
<p>For example, although I&#8217;m not a lawyer and don&#8217;t play one on TV (nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night), I disagree with Mr. Gura on his treatment of the issue of automatic weapons during the Heller arguments.  I&#8217;ve read his explanation, and I believe that he could have answered that question in a way that had less of a &#8220;throw that one under the bus&#8221; flavor.</p>
<p>However, he did engineer an incredibly big win, and I salute him for that.  With some luck and a lot of hard work, it will be the foundation for many successful lawsuits to come.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not that familiar with Gorski or the arguments for or against his approach to litigating 2nd Amendment suits.  (I do hold that Silveria brought us one of the best quotes on the true nature of the 2nd in history.)  However, l&#8217;m not going to take too much time from my work for the 2nd in order to bash him, either.  </p>
<p>Like I said, we really need to keep our eye on the goal.  We all need to cooperate in reaching it and realize that there will be times when we won&#8217;t, and not allow those instances to become destructive to the overall effort.</p>
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		<title>By: SayUncle &#187; Gura speaks</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49496</link>
		<dc:creator>SayUncle &#187; Gura speaks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49496</guid>
		<description>[...] recaps Alan Gura&#8217;s chat with the folks at the Gun Blogger Rendezvous. Discussion included future legal battles, threats to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recaps Alan Gura&#8217;s chat with the folks at the Gun Blogger Rendezvous. Discussion included future legal battles, threats to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LM</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/09/15/mr-gura-goes-to-reno/#comment-49487</link>
		<dc:creator>LM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12939#comment-49487</guid>
		<description>I wish you had asked him to clarify who these &quot;extremists and lunatics&quot; in the 2A community are.

Who decides what defines an extremist within a community that is often labeled by the mainstream media and political parties as extremist?

I think we can all agree that the neo-nazi&#039;s and racists are out on the fringe and deserve to be further marginalized, but what about supporters of constitutional militias? jeffersonian libertarians? people flying gadsden flags?

These groups are too often grouped together in the minds of the general public, we in the 2A community need to be careful or risk alienating a huge portion of gun rights supporters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish you had asked him to clarify who these &#8220;extremists and lunatics&#8221; in the 2A community are.</p>
<p>Who decides what defines an extremist within a community that is often labeled by the mainstream media and political parties as extremist?</p>
<p>I think we can all agree that the neo-nazi&#8217;s and racists are out on the fringe and deserve to be further marginalized, but what about supporters of constitutional militias? jeffersonian libertarians? people flying gadsden flags?</p>
<p>These groups are too often grouped together in the minds of the general public, we in the 2A community need to be careful or risk alienating a huge portion of gun rights supporters.</p>
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