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	<title>Comments on: Pay Pal&#8217;s Gun Policies</title>
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	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-47350</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 00:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-47350</guid>
		<description>Good news Kevin.  I&#039;ll link that tomorrow.  Bug me if I forget.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good news Kevin.  I&#8217;ll link that tomorrow.  Bug me if I forget.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-47347</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 00:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-47347</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve managed to bypass PayPal!  Another sponsor of the Rendezvous, LuckyGunner.com, an ammo site, is doing the on-line ticket sales for us with all proceeds (minus the 3% credit card fee) going to Soldiers&#039; Angels.  Soldiers&#039; Angels is still taking phone orders for those who don&#039;t want to purchase on-line.  Details &lt;a href=&quot;http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2009/08/hey-still-wanna-win-one-of-these.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

And thanks again for linking!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve managed to bypass PayPal!  Another sponsor of the Rendezvous, LuckyGunner.com, an ammo site, is doing the on-line ticket sales for us with all proceeds (minus the 3% credit card fee) going to Soldiers&#8217; Angels.  Soldiers&#8217; Angels is still taking phone orders for those who don&#8217;t want to purchase on-line.  Details <a href="http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2009/08/hey-still-wanna-win-one-of-these.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>And thanks again for linking!</p>
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		<title>By: Bitter</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46963</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46963</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mind them getting a black eye over their user agreement, but I think the spirited outrage over this particular situation is misplaced.  SA took a risk breaking multiple parts of the contract with PayPal.  I sympathize with them that the results of such a risk were not what they expected.  However, some of the accusations thrown around that PayPal is being anti-veteran and anti-military because of this policy are absolutely absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mind them getting a black eye over their user agreement, but I think the spirited outrage over this particular situation is misplaced.  SA took a risk breaking multiple parts of the contract with PayPal.  I sympathize with them that the results of such a risk were not what they expected.  However, some of the accusations thrown around that PayPal is being anti-veteran and anti-military because of this policy are absolutely absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46956</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46956</guid>
		<description>I also don&#039;t mind them getting a black eye over this because the more people know that PayPal is evil, the better.  The only way they are going to change is if people just say no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also don&#8217;t mind them getting a black eye over this because the more people know that PayPal is evil, the better.  The only way they are going to change is if people just say no.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46955</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46955</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t do PayPal. Period.&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s a wise move.  I agree with Bitter that they are within their user agreement, but because their user agreement sucks, I won&#039;t use them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t do PayPal. Period.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a wise move.  I agree with Bitter that they are within their user agreement, but because their user agreement sucks, I won&#8217;t use them.</p>
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		<title>By: Bitter</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46954</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46954</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t matter that they weren&#039;t selling the gun directly, the raffle was still a clear violation of the user agreement: &lt;blockquote&gt;You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
2. relate to sales of ... (h) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories...&lt;/blockquote&gt; Clearly, the raffle tickets for a gun &quot;relate&quot; to the sale of firearms, as per the wording of their policies.  That&#039;s the user agreement for the entire account, not just the little button for a raffle ticket for a gun.  PayPal was well within the authority of the terms that SA agreed to when they opted to do this raffle.

Not being a lawyer with thorough knowledge of all state gambling laws and definitions, I wouldn&#039;t be shocked if PayPal also saw concern with the raffle itself.  Another section of the user agreement states: &lt;blockquote&gt;You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
6. involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law.&lt;/blockquote&gt; So at the very least, I&#039;m quite sure that PayPal also had concerns about this taking place without their knowledge or prior approval, again, as required by the agreement that SA approved when they started the PayPal account.  They might have done raffles before using the account, but if they didn&#039;t get prior approval, those were also likely in violation of the terms.

Look, it&#039;s a crappy user agreement for non-profits and/or gun owners.  I won&#039;t argue that, but I will say that PayPal was perfectly within the bounds of the user agreement when they suspended the account.  SA should have looked into the agreement on both raffle tickets (aka sweepstakes) and gun related sales before agreeing to do this.  By not doing so, they were taking a risk.  It may have been a calculated risk that PayPal wouldn&#039;t likely find out about it.  However, taking such a risk during a major fundraiser was not the wisest move on their part.  They got caught in violation on multiple fronts, and they paid the consequences.  Fortunately, PayPal has, in my mind, acted very fairly and restored their account minus the offending raffle.  It&#039;s not an ideal, but it&#039;s a perfectly fair solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter that they weren&#8217;t selling the gun directly, the raffle was still a clear violation of the user agreement:<br />
<blockquote>You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:<br />
2. relate to sales of &#8230; (h) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p> Clearly, the raffle tickets for a gun &#8220;relate&#8221; to the sale of firearms, as per the wording of their policies.  That&#8217;s the user agreement for the entire account, not just the little button for a raffle ticket for a gun.  PayPal was well within the authority of the terms that SA agreed to when they opted to do this raffle.</p>
<p>Not being a lawyer with thorough knowledge of all state gambling laws and definitions, I wouldn&#8217;t be shocked if PayPal also saw concern with the raffle itself.  Another section of the user agreement states:<br />
<blockquote>You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:<br />
6. involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law.</p></blockquote>
<p> So at the very least, I&#8217;m quite sure that PayPal also had concerns about this taking place without their knowledge or prior approval, again, as required by the agreement that SA approved when they started the PayPal account.  They might have done raffles before using the account, but if they didn&#8217;t get prior approval, those were also likely in violation of the terms.</p>
<p>Look, it&#8217;s a crappy user agreement for non-profits and/or gun owners.  I won&#8217;t argue that, but I will say that PayPal was perfectly within the bounds of the user agreement when they suspended the account.  SA should have looked into the agreement on both raffle tickets (aka sweepstakes) and gun related sales before agreeing to do this.  By not doing so, they were taking a risk.  It may have been a calculated risk that PayPal wouldn&#8217;t likely find out about it.  However, taking such a risk during a major fundraiser was not the wisest move on their part.  They got caught in violation on multiple fronts, and they paid the consequences.  Fortunately, PayPal has, in my mind, acted very fairly and restored their account minus the offending raffle.  It&#8217;s not an ideal, but it&#8217;s a perfectly fair solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Paypal Costs Charity &#124; Gay Military Life</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46953</link>
		<dc:creator>Paypal Costs Charity &#124; Gay Military Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46953</guid>
		<description>[...] Alan at Snarkybytes &#8211; Paypal: Anti-Gun Sebastian at Snowflakes in Hell &#8211; PayPal&#8217;s Gun Policies Kahr40 at From the Barrel of a Gun &#8211; Paypal is anti-gun Kevin S. at Brown Valley Kingdom [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Alan at Snarkybytes &#8211; Paypal: Anti-Gun Sebastian at Snowflakes in Hell &#8211; PayPal&#8217;s Gun Policies Kahr40 at From the Barrel of a Gun &#8211; Paypal is anti-gun Kevin S. at Brown Valley Kingdom [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46952</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46952</guid>
		<description>Look, y&#039;all do what you think it the right thing. I&#039;m well over 700 positive feedbacks on eBay, such that I was given the s00per sekrit phone number when I have a problem, and I regularly give them grief for restricting a sale between two individuals who don&#039;t live in Kommiefornia and aren&#039;t subject to their laws.

I also use PayPal whenever possible to buy gun parts/accessories, just to piss &#039;em off. I don&#039;t use PP to sell stuff, so the only thing they can do is to cancel my membership, which they have yet to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, y&#8217;all do what you think it the right thing. I&#8217;m well over 700 positive feedbacks on eBay, such that I was given the s00per sekrit phone number when I have a problem, and I regularly give them grief for restricting a sale between two individuals who don&#8217;t live in Kommiefornia and aren&#8217;t subject to their laws.</p>
<p>I also use PayPal whenever possible to buy gun parts/accessories, just to piss &#8216;em off. I don&#8217;t use PP to sell stuff, so the only thing they can do is to cancel my membership, which they have yet to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Borepatch</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46948</link>
		<dc:creator>Borepatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46948</guid>
		<description>Paypal is owned by eBay.  Their PR department is at (408) 376-7458.  Please be polite, but let them know they have a PR issue.  Mention that you don&#039;t think that they meant to shut down a charity helping wounded soldiers, but they&#039;ll want to look into it.

They will NOT want this spinning out of control, even if they personally hate guns.

But please be polite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paypal is owned by eBay.  Their PR department is at (408) 376-7458.  Please be polite, but let them know they have a PR issue.  Mention that you don&#8217;t think that they meant to shut down a charity helping wounded soldiers, but they&#8217;ll want to look into it.</p>
<p>They will NOT want this spinning out of control, even if they personally hate guns.</p>
<p>But please be polite.</p>
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		<title>By: Life in 3D &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Paypal hates guns, and apparently the military</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/30/pay-pals-gun-policies/#comment-46946</link>
		<dc:creator>Life in 3D &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Paypal hates guns, and apparently the military</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=12037#comment-46946</guid>
		<description>[...] it initially over at my friend Jennifer&#8217;s site, but The Smallest Minority has the whole [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it initially over at my friend Jennifer&#8217;s site, but The Smallest Minority has the whole [...]</p>
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