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	<title>Comments on: Arizona Restaurant Carry Imperfections</title>
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	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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		<title>By: R. Franz</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46357</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Franz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46357</guid>
		<description>While I do thank you for looking into it, my objection stands. I understand the NRA&#039;s reasoning for seeking compromise before the bill even got off the ground, but this wasn&#039;t their baby, they aren&#039;t the only lobbyists in this state, and frankly, this isnt their state. 

I greatly appreciate the support the NRA gives in backing state bills, and even many of the bills they ask to be introduced, but this comes across as needless meddling, which seems more and more par for the course. 

Of course it is possible that the bill wouldn&#039;t have passed, but i don&#039;t know of any reason anyone would know that ahead of time, and this was the perfect year (other than the snafu with the budget, which derailed a number of good bills) to go for the gold. If it hadn&#039;t have passed, because of clear political objections like those listed, it would make plenty of sense to make concessions to get something passed in the next session. Making concessions before you have lost just seems silly, and borderline sabotage when its not your bill you are making concessions to. 

Its all good to say we moved the ball foreward a yard, and getting something is better than nothing, but we also removed the urgency in addressing the danger of a public gunfree zone, in the future, making it that much less pressing to address, as opponents and moderates will simply say, if you want to be safe, get your CCW, or as our former governor wrote last year, in one of her veto statements on a pro gun rights bill, that we want to have our cake and eat it too.  Of course all Arizonians are made safer by this law being signed, just as they would be safer if all blue eyed people were allowed to carry in restaurants, but that doesnt make it full realization of civil rights, or the right thing to do.

Isn&#039;t that exactly the reasoning the NRA gave for not supporting Illinois&#039; CCW efforts, In what comes down to the same lack of the NRA supporting state lobbying groups? That passing of a CCW law without preemption would just take the wind out of the sails, removing the urgency and pressure it would take to pass the &quot;right&quot; bill? That moving the ball forward a yard was a bad idea, if it made the likelyhood of a touchdown less? Illinois had already lost that battle several times, and was prepared to make compromises to achieve some progress, rather than having just passed the exact same bill as was proposed, the year previous. 

I am also worried about the precedence set in creating, for the first time in Arizona, CCW as a vehicle of gun privilege, which all previous laws respected as an extension of existing rights.

If nothing else, I hope the NRA takes the matter seriously and puts forth a sincere effort next session to take on passing the &quot;right&quot; bill and finishing the job that was started this year, if it is still possible, but I, for one, am much more likely to take my yearly contributions to state organizations next year, than see the NRA spend it to not support the state groups like the AZCDL that are working hard to establish legal recognition of our civil rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I do thank you for looking into it, my objection stands. I understand the NRA&#8217;s reasoning for seeking compromise before the bill even got off the ground, but this wasn&#8217;t their baby, they aren&#8217;t the only lobbyists in this state, and frankly, this isnt their state. </p>
<p>I greatly appreciate the support the NRA gives in backing state bills, and even many of the bills they ask to be introduced, but this comes across as needless meddling, which seems more and more par for the course. </p>
<p>Of course it is possible that the bill wouldn&#8217;t have passed, but i don&#8217;t know of any reason anyone would know that ahead of time, and this was the perfect year (other than the snafu with the budget, which derailed a number of good bills) to go for the gold. If it hadn&#8217;t have passed, because of clear political objections like those listed, it would make plenty of sense to make concessions to get something passed in the next session. Making concessions before you have lost just seems silly, and borderline sabotage when its not your bill you are making concessions to. </p>
<p>Its all good to say we moved the ball foreward a yard, and getting something is better than nothing, but we also removed the urgency in addressing the danger of a public gunfree zone, in the future, making it that much less pressing to address, as opponents and moderates will simply say, if you want to be safe, get your CCW, or as our former governor wrote last year, in one of her veto statements on a pro gun rights bill, that we want to have our cake and eat it too.  Of course all Arizonians are made safer by this law being signed, just as they would be safer if all blue eyed people were allowed to carry in restaurants, but that doesnt make it full realization of civil rights, or the right thing to do.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that exactly the reasoning the NRA gave for not supporting Illinois&#8217; CCW efforts, In what comes down to the same lack of the NRA supporting state lobbying groups? That passing of a CCW law without preemption would just take the wind out of the sails, removing the urgency and pressure it would take to pass the &#8220;right&#8221; bill? That moving the ball forward a yard was a bad idea, if it made the likelyhood of a touchdown less? Illinois had already lost that battle several times, and was prepared to make compromises to achieve some progress, rather than having just passed the exact same bill as was proposed, the year previous. </p>
<p>I am also worried about the precedence set in creating, for the first time in Arizona, CCW as a vehicle of gun privilege, which all previous laws respected as an extension of existing rights.</p>
<p>If nothing else, I hope the NRA takes the matter seriously and puts forth a sincere effort next session to take on passing the &#8220;right&#8221; bill and finishing the job that was started this year, if it is still possible, but I, for one, am much more likely to take my yearly contributions to state organizations next year, than see the NRA spend it to not support the state groups like the AZCDL that are working hard to establish legal recognition of our civil rights.</p>
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		<title>By: AZ Restaurant Carry Bill &#8211; Not Perfect, But Not a Loss &#171; Misanthropic? Me? Inconceivable.</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46261</link>
		<dc:creator>AZ Restaurant Carry Bill &#8211; Not Perfect, But Not a Loss &#171; Misanthropic? Me? Inconceivable.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46261</guid>
		<description>[...] Restaurant Carry Bill &#8211; Not Perfect, But Not a&#160;Loss  Sebastian has a nice overview of the restaurant-carry bill that passed here recently. While I&#8217;ll take it as an improvement [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Restaurant Carry Bill &#8211; Not Perfect, But Not a&nbsp;Loss  Sebastian has a nice overview of the restaurant-carry bill that passed here recently. While I&#8217;ll take it as an improvement [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46195</link>
		<dc:creator>Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46195</guid>
		<description>I think the folks who are crying about a partial victory aren&#039;t seeing the big picture.  It&#039;s a glass half empty perspective.  I prefer to see it as glass half full and it will be fixed later.  In the meantime I can make the wife happy by taking her out to someplace besides the breakfast joint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the folks who are crying about a partial victory aren&#8217;t seeing the big picture.  It&#8217;s a glass half empty perspective.  I prefer to see it as glass half full and it will be fixed later.  In the meantime I can make the wife happy by taking her out to someplace besides the breakfast joint.</p>
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		<title>By: Eseell</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46192</link>
		<dc:creator>Eseell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46192</guid>
		<description>AzCDL is very passionate about this issue. I&#039;m confident that they won&#039;t let it die until it&#039;s done right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AzCDL is very passionate about this issue. I&#8217;m confident that they won&#8217;t let it die until it&#8217;s done right.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46191</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46191</guid>
		<description>I will say, though, that a bill which would remove some freedom from one part of the coalition to enrich another would be wrong and improper.  If the deal to get the votes needed for restaurant carry would have been to ban open carry in, say, public parks, that wouldn&#039;t be a deal that should not be made.  In this case, we got to advance the ball one yard instead of two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will say, though, that a bill which would remove some freedom from one part of the coalition to enrich another would be wrong and improper.  If the deal to get the votes needed for restaurant carry would have been to ban open carry in, say, public parks, that wouldn&#8217;t be a deal that should not be made.  In this case, we got to advance the ball one yard instead of two.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46190</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46190</guid>
		<description>MB:

That&#039;s probably the chief danger in partial victories, but ideally the coalition keeps pushing until we get the whole thing.  It doesn&#039;t always work that way, but it&#039;s still a trade off.  There are costs and risks to waiting for the perfect bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MB:</p>
<p>That&#8217;s probably the chief danger in partial victories, but ideally the coalition keeps pushing until we get the whole thing.  It doesn&#8217;t always work that way, but it&#8217;s still a trade off.  There are costs and risks to waiting for the perfect bill.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46189</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46189</guid>
		<description>Andrew:

It&#039;s because I don&#039;t get paid for this that you don&#039;t get much proofreading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew:</p>
<p>It&#8217;s because I don&#8217;t get paid for this that you don&#8217;t get much proofreading.</p>
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		<title>By: Bitter</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46188</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46188</guid>
		<description>Andrew, have you ever heard of the free ice cream concept when it comes to blogging?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, have you ever heard of the free ice cream concept when it comes to blogging?</p>
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		<title>By: MicroBalrog</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46187</link>
		<dc:creator>MicroBalrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46187</guid>
		<description>&gt; If you pass an imperfect bill, it can make fixing the problems &gt;more difficult down the road, since some people got what &gt;they wanted, they might not have as much incentive to fight &gt;for the rest.

And this is often not just a huge practical, but also a major moral issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; If you pass an imperfect bill, it can make fixing the problems &gt;more difficult down the road, since some people got what &gt;they wanted, they might not have as much incentive to fight &gt;for the rest.</p>
<p>And this is often not just a huge practical, but also a major moral issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/15/arizona-restaurant-carry-imperfections/#comment-46185</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11699#comment-46185</guid>
		<description>I do love your blog. I read it daily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do love your blog. I read it daily.</p>
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