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	<title>Comments on: Parking Lot Thing in Arizona</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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		<title>By: Matthew Carberry</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45631</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Carberry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45631</guid>
		<description>I see your point.

The choice isn&#039;t in the terms of the contract, as that presupposes you have a right to the job in the first place, rather the bilaterality is in their ability to offer you employment, or not, and your ability to accept or decline the offer of employment, per the offer terms. 

That&#039;s bilateral, or at least mutual, as you are not being forced to accept the job in the first place, you can refuse and walk away if the terms displease you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your point.</p>
<p>The choice isn&#8217;t in the terms of the contract, as that presupposes you have a right to the job in the first place, rather the bilaterality is in their ability to offer you employment, or not, and your ability to accept or decline the offer of employment, per the offer terms. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s bilateral, or at least mutual, as you are not being forced to accept the job in the first place, you can refuse and walk away if the terms displease you.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45625</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45625</guid>
		<description>A contract that both parties can change any  term is bilateral. A unilateral cointract is a premade and they just have the option to sign or reject.

 Does a prospective have the ability to chang the policies of the company? I don&#039;t think so. So it is a unilateral contract.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A contract that both parties can change any  term is bilateral. A unilateral cointract is a premade and they just have the option to sign or reject.</p>
<p> Does a prospective have the ability to chang the policies of the company? I don&#8217;t think so. So it is a unilateral contract.</p>
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		<title>By: Bitter</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45587</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45587</guid>
		<description>How is a contract to which you agree unilateral?  If you willingly sign your name, it&#039;s not unilateral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is a contract to which you agree unilateral?  If you willingly sign your name, it&#8217;s not unilateral.</p>
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		<title>By: RAH</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45586</link>
		<dc:creator>RAH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45586</guid>
		<description>The employment is a often a unilateral contract and  the prospective employee has to agree as condition to all the corporate policies. He is not allowed to change those policies as the realate to himself.

 Tryanny can be imposed by anyone or business that has power.  The  fact they are not the government does not stop the ability to impose tyrannical conditions.

 Employers are already have certain constraints  not to fire employeee based on  other considerations . The requirement that employers have to respect the private property of the car and its contents is  just another common constraint.

 If the item was a bible in the car I am certain that the leglistaure would have no probable forbidding private business from firing an employee that had one in his car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The employment is a often a unilateral contract and  the prospective employee has to agree as condition to all the corporate policies. He is not allowed to change those policies as the realate to himself.</p>
<p> Tryanny can be imposed by anyone or business that has power.  The  fact they are not the government does not stop the ability to impose tyrannical conditions.</p>
<p> Employers are already have certain constraints  not to fire employeee based on  other considerations . The requirement that employers have to respect the private property of the car and its contents is  just another common constraint.</p>
<p> If the item was a bible in the car I am certain that the leglistaure would have no probable forbidding private business from firing an employee that had one in his car.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Carberry</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45534</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Carberry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45534</guid>
		<description>Joe,

I think that is consistent reasoning.

If the government is forbidden to discriminate (say, ban CHL) on a given piece of public property or venue they should certainly not be able to require private organizations to act as an agent for them on that property in such a way as to discriminate on their behalf.

If anything, they should be required to forbid private organizations wishing to use public property from discriminating in any way that government is forbidden to.

If you want to hold a &quot;gun free event&quot;, and such carry and possession is expressly permitted at a particular public venue available for rent, you should either have to comply with the public use rules or find private property on which to not do so.

If you wish to go &quot;macro&quot; and change what government is able to discriminate against, so as to allow you to rent public property and discriminate as you wish, you should act within the procedures provided by the appropriate governing document or constitution.

If the right involved is fundamental, you should then see your discriminatory wishes dashed on the rocks of liberty and swept into the abyss of failed authoritarianism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>I think that is consistent reasoning.</p>
<p>If the government is forbidden to discriminate (say, ban CHL) on a given piece of public property or venue they should certainly not be able to require private organizations to act as an agent for them on that property in such a way as to discriminate on their behalf.</p>
<p>If anything, they should be required to forbid private organizations wishing to use public property from discriminating in any way that government is forbidden to.</p>
<p>If you want to hold a &#8220;gun free event&#8221;, and such carry and possession is expressly permitted at a particular public venue available for rent, you should either have to comply with the public use rules or find private property on which to not do so.</p>
<p>If you wish to go &#8220;macro&#8221; and change what government is able to discriminate against, so as to allow you to rent public property and discriminate as you wish, you should act within the procedures provided by the appropriate governing document or constitution.</p>
<p>If the right involved is fundamental, you should then see your discriminatory wishes dashed on the rocks of liberty and swept into the abyss of failed authoritarianism.</p>
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		<title>By: MDerosier</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45533</link>
		<dc:creator>MDerosier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45533</guid>
		<description>Hah! Excellent point! I hadn&#039;t quite thought about it that far out. Of course you&#039;re right. I forgot that the government has no right to force discrimination on public property, I was thinking of it in terms of the government owning private property. Obviously I was mistaken, as the government can&#039;t own private property.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hah! Excellent point! I hadn&#8217;t quite thought about it that far out. Of course you&#8217;re right. I forgot that the government has no right to force discrimination on public property, I was thinking of it in terms of the government owning private property. Obviously I was mistaken, as the government can&#8217;t own private property.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Huffman</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45531</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Huffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45531</guid>
		<description>Here is where I&#039;m going to disagree. I think private organizations should have stronger sanctions available to rectify the situation. The government should not more be able to force private organizations to discriminate against gun-owners/blacks/Jews/gays than they could require the private organization to search, torture, or restrict their speech on behalf of the state. 

When the issue is use of &quot;public property&quot; if the government is not allowed discriminate then they should not be able require others to do it on their behalf as a condition of use of that &quot;public property&quot;. Otherwise it&#039;s not really &quot;public property&quot;. Otherwise the people in power at the time could say only Republicans/Democrats/Communists/whoever can use the parks and have parades on public streets. Only those in favor by the political elite enjoy the use of &quot;public property&quot;.

Once you accept that then you are nearly forced to accept, by intellectual consistency, that the government may not discriminate against those that &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; discriminate--i.e. KKK parades on public streets and use of other public facilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is where I&#8217;m going to disagree. I think private organizations should have stronger sanctions available to rectify the situation. The government should not more be able to force private organizations to discriminate against gun-owners/blacks/Jews/gays than they could require the private organization to search, torture, or restrict their speech on behalf of the state. </p>
<p>When the issue is use of &#8220;public property&#8221; if the government is not allowed discriminate then they should not be able require others to do it on their behalf as a condition of use of that &#8220;public property&#8221;. Otherwise it&#8217;s not really &#8220;public property&#8221;. Otherwise the people in power at the time could say only Republicans/Democrats/Communists/whoever can use the parks and have parades on public streets. Only those in favor by the political elite enjoy the use of &#8220;public property&#8221;.</p>
<p>Once you accept that then you are nearly forced to accept, by intellectual consistency, that the government may not discriminate against those that <em>do</em> discriminate&#8211;i.e. KKK parades on public streets and use of other public facilities.</p>
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		<title>By: MDerosier</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45527</link>
		<dc:creator>MDerosier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45527</guid>
		<description>I guess I misunderstood about the concept&#039;s application in this regard (I had interpreted the issue as the city being anti-discriminatory in the example, but the same concept holds true for the pro-discriminatory side). If the city makes a demand of an employer in order to use municipal property, the employer has to either comply or relocate. While the terms may be dodgy and reprehensible, they are the terms set by the city. If an employer felt strongly about the terms set forth by the city, they should relocate. If an employee feels strongly about the terms its employer accepts, they should seek alternate employment. The alternate course of action is to stay and accept the terms, but work towards their repeal. In a place like Seattle, this option would probably prove ineffective.

Granted, in a Libertarian society, the city would not be anti OR pro discrimination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I misunderstood about the concept&#8217;s application in this regard (I had interpreted the issue as the city being anti-discriminatory in the example, but the same concept holds true for the pro-discriminatory side). If the city makes a demand of an employer in order to use municipal property, the employer has to either comply or relocate. While the terms may be dodgy and reprehensible, they are the terms set by the city. If an employer felt strongly about the terms set forth by the city, they should relocate. If an employee feels strongly about the terms its employer accepts, they should seek alternate employment. The alternate course of action is to stay and accept the terms, but work towards their repeal. In a place like Seattle, this option would probably prove ineffective.</p>
<p>Granted, in a Libertarian society, the city would not be anti OR pro discrimination.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Huffman</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45521</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Huffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45521</guid>
		<description>MDerosier, I think you misunderstood my statement of the situation in Seattle (my fault, it wasn&#039;t very clear).

The city of Seattle is &lt;em&gt;requiring&lt;/em&gt; private business who wish to rent city facilities (or have a parade) to discriminate against people with CPLs. This is despite the fact that Washington State has preemption on firearms laws. The city is not allowed to discriminate so they City requires private organizations to discriminate then tells the state AG, &quot;We didn&#039;t do it, it was the private organization that is doing it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MDerosier, I think you misunderstood my statement of the situation in Seattle (my fault, it wasn&#8217;t very clear).</p>
<p>The city of Seattle is <em>requiring</em> private business who wish to rent city facilities (or have a parade) to discriminate against people with CPLs. This is despite the fact that Washington State has preemption on firearms laws. The city is not allowed to discriminate so they City requires private organizations to discriminate then tells the state AG, &#8220;We didn&#8217;t do it, it was the private organization that is doing it.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MDerosier</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/07/02/parking-lot-thing-in-arizona/#comment-45520</link>
		<dc:creator>MDerosier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=11427#comment-45520</guid>
		<description>Well said, Mr. Carberry, Well said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Mr. Carberry, Well said.</p>
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