<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Driving Extremism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/</link>
	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:39:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27925</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27925</guid>
		<description>&gt;No it’s not. It’s a joke. And that you and others on the left don’t get it is very
&gt;telling.

Thank you for proving my point.  You know nothing of my political beliefs.  But if I criticized McCain, I must be from the left.  Because the distinction has nothing to do with positions, only with whether I&#039;m in your tribe or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;No it’s not. It’s a joke. And that you and others on the left don’t get it is very<br />
&gt;telling.</p>
<p>Thank you for proving my point.  You know nothing of my political beliefs.  But if I criticized McCain, I must be from the left.  Because the distinction has nothing to do with positions, only with whether I&#8217;m in your tribe or not.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ATL</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27917</link>
		<dc:creator>ATL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27917</guid>
		<description>&quot;The media is perhaps the worst of the bunch when it comes to standing up for justice and liberty, and holding the powerful accountable.  Sure, they are willing to do it when it involves topics the left disapproves of, but they tend to ignore a lot of Americans’ deeply established and held values.&quot;

These litany of abuses come from when we as citizens have not done our job. Little by little; bit by bit we have lost our freedoms because generations of Americans have believed that these other institutions would enforce our will. I hope the short amount of time has awoken Americans to what has been going on for well over a century! 

These things have happened because we have delegated our responsibilities to organizations such as the ACLU, NRA, and the Media. Whatever these organizations are we must understand that our freedoms and rights are our responsibility. When we don&#039;t show up to vote, when we don&#039;t call our representatives, when we don&#039;t stay involved- what can you expect? The only reason things have gotten this bad is because we have allowed them to. 

This discontent is the wages of our sins which in this case was complacency and laziness. Why do it yourself when you can give money for someone else to do it for you? &quot;It&#039;s not my job to call my congressman, that&#039;s why I give money to the NRA.&quot; You wonder why things have gotten to where they are now? You want someone to blame? Look in the mirror! 

P.S. Sebastian thank you for running a great site. You know you are working hard and are effective when Helmke has to mention you in his satanic jihad against human rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The media is perhaps the worst of the bunch when it comes to standing up for justice and liberty, and holding the powerful accountable.  Sure, they are willing to do it when it involves topics the left disapproves of, but they tend to ignore a lot of Americans’ deeply established and held values.&#8221;</p>
<p>These litany of abuses come from when we as citizens have not done our job. Little by little; bit by bit we have lost our freedoms because generations of Americans have believed that these other institutions would enforce our will. I hope the short amount of time has awoken Americans to what has been going on for well over a century! </p>
<p>These things have happened because we have delegated our responsibilities to organizations such as the ACLU, NRA, and the Media. Whatever these organizations are we must understand that our freedoms and rights are our responsibility. When we don&#8217;t show up to vote, when we don&#8217;t call our representatives, when we don&#8217;t stay involved- what can you expect? The only reason things have gotten this bad is because we have allowed them to. </p>
<p>This discontent is the wages of our sins which in this case was complacency and laziness. Why do it yourself when you can give money for someone else to do it for you? &#8220;It&#8217;s not my job to call my congressman, that&#8217;s why I give money to the NRA.&#8221; You wonder why things have gotten to where they are now? You want someone to blame? Look in the mirror! </p>
<p>P.S. Sebastian thank you for running a great site. You know you are working hard and are effective when Helmke has to mention you in his satanic jihad against human rights.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: oldblinddog</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27916</link>
		<dc:creator>oldblinddog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27916</guid>
		<description>Noops said:
&lt;i&gt;Trickle down/supply-side economics have proven so disastrously silly and unsuccessful more than once now.&lt;/i&gt;

Besides the fact that that is a rediculous statement on it&#039;s face, Reaganomics (as the left likes to call them) was first proposed by JFK. Of course that is where Reagan learned of it. He was a democrat back then.

Stormy Dragon said:
&lt;i&gt;Bringing it up is an insult to my intelligence.&lt;/i&gt;

No it&#039;s not. It&#039;s a joke. And that you and others on the left don&#039;t get it is very telling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noops said:<br />
<i>Trickle down/supply-side economics have proven so disastrously silly and unsuccessful more than once now.</i></p>
<p>Besides the fact that that is a rediculous statement on it&#8217;s face, Reaganomics (as the left likes to call them) was first proposed by JFK. Of course that is where Reagan learned of it. He was a democrat back then.</p>
<p>Stormy Dragon said:<br />
<i>Bringing it up is an insult to my intelligence.</i></p>
<p>No it&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s a joke. And that you and others on the left don&#8217;t get it is very telling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27911</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27911</guid>
		<description>&gt;Surely there’s an ideological component to divide between progressive
&gt;Democrats and conservative/libertarian Republicans

Yes, if you mean actual progressives/convservatives/libertarians.  But that&#039;s only 10-15% of each party.  Most people merely say progressive/convservative/libertarian things (usually without really understanding the meaning of what they&#039;re saying) but act in an entirely different fashion.

Take the recent thing with McCain accusing Obama of liking arugala.  For someone who actually cares about public policy, this is completely irrelevant to anything I care about.  Bringing it up is an insult to my intelligence.  Yet I know a lot of &#039;convservative&#039; Republican for whom that sort of crap is a big deal.  And there&#039;s a lot more of them than there are of me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Surely there’s an ideological component to divide between progressive<br />
&gt;Democrats and conservative/libertarian Republicans</p>
<p>Yes, if you mean actual progressives/convservatives/libertarians.  But that&#8217;s only 10-15% of each party.  Most people merely say progressive/convservative/libertarian things (usually without really understanding the meaning of what they&#8217;re saying) but act in an entirely different fashion.</p>
<p>Take the recent thing with McCain accusing Obama of liking arugala.  For someone who actually cares about public policy, this is completely irrelevant to anything I care about.  Bringing it up is an insult to my intelligence.  Yet I know a lot of &#8216;convservative&#8217; Republican for whom that sort of crap is a big deal.  And there&#8217;s a lot more of them than there are of me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JJR</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27908</link>
		<dc:creator>JJR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27908</guid>
		<description>Thought provoking post, and (mostly) good responses in the comments.  As you know, I&#039;m a a Lefty, and yes, I&#039;m outraged at a lot of the same things you are in your post above.

I&#039;ve got my own reasons to dislike Obama and not vote for him.  His gun controlling past for sure, but I&#039;ve got plenty of solidly Lefty reasons not to vote for him either.

As one of my favorite Lefty political blogs provocatively puts it:  &quot;They American Left May Not Be Much, But It Won&#039;t Be Anything At All Until It Ditches The Democrats&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought provoking post, and (mostly) good responses in the comments.  As you know, I&#8217;m a a Lefty, and yes, I&#8217;m outraged at a lot of the same things you are in your post above.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got my own reasons to dislike Obama and not vote for him.  His gun controlling past for sure, but I&#8217;ve got plenty of solidly Lefty reasons not to vote for him either.</p>
<p>As one of my favorite Lefty political blogs provocatively puts it:  &#8220;They American Left May Not Be Much, But It Won&#8217;t Be Anything At All Until It Ditches The Democrats&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27906</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27906</guid>
		<description>Stormy,

I don&#039;t think a lot of those disaffected people are as amiable to police misconduct as you might think.  But keep in mind, I&#039;m making generalizations here, to which there will be exceptions.  I agree that the left/right divide has elements of tribalism, but would you go so far as to day the divide has no ideological component to it at all?  Sure, there are some people who pick their political party based on family and community traditions, but if that were the only case, our political landscape would forever be static.

Surely there&#039;s an ideological component to divide between progressive Democrats and conservative/libertarian Republicans in this country, no?  One of my big concern about Progressive Democrats is they don&#039;t seem to have the same blanket concern for civil liberties that they once did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stormy,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think a lot of those disaffected people are as amiable to police misconduct as you might think.  But keep in mind, I&#8217;m making generalizations here, to which there will be exceptions.  I agree that the left/right divide has elements of tribalism, but would you go so far as to day the divide has no ideological component to it at all?  Sure, there are some people who pick their political party based on family and community traditions, but if that were the only case, our political landscape would forever be static.</p>
<p>Surely there&#8217;s an ideological component to divide between progressive Democrats and conservative/libertarian Republicans in this country, no?  One of my big concern about Progressive Democrats is they don&#8217;t seem to have the same blanket concern for civil liberties that they once did.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27905</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27905</guid>
		<description>&gt;But is corruption and abuse of power really something we want the left and
&gt;right agreeing on?

No, but I wanted to refute your &#039;if the liberal elites don&#039;t start worrying about this, they&#039;re going to face a revolt&#039;.  The disaffected people you mention by and large have no problem with police abuse itself, and indeed will cheer them on as tough on crime crusaders.  The only time many of them bring it up is situationally if it becomes a convenient cudgel for bashing a liberal.  As soon as the situation passes they forget about it, because they aren&#039;t sincerely bothered by it.

The left/right divide in the country is largely based not on any substantative policy differences, but purely out of tribalism.  So a discussion of what the left should do is pointless: the right doesn&#039;t hate the left for what they do, but because they&#039;re The Other, and vice versa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;But is corruption and abuse of power really something we want the left and<br />
&gt;right agreeing on?</p>
<p>No, but I wanted to refute your &#8216;if the liberal elites don&#8217;t start worrying about this, they&#8217;re going to face a revolt&#8217;.  The disaffected people you mention by and large have no problem with police abuse itself, and indeed will cheer them on as tough on crime crusaders.  The only time many of them bring it up is situationally if it becomes a convenient cudgel for bashing a liberal.  As soon as the situation passes they forget about it, because they aren&#8217;t sincerely bothered by it.</p>
<p>The left/right divide in the country is largely based not on any substantative policy differences, but purely out of tribalism.  So a discussion of what the left should do is pointless: the right doesn&#8217;t hate the left for what they do, but because they&#8217;re The Other, and vice versa.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: georgeh</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27904</link>
		<dc:creator>georgeh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27904</guid>
		<description>Mr. Moses is a saint.
His persecution is well past what it would take to make a violent terrorist of me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Moses is a saint.<br />
His persecution is well past what it would take to make a violent terrorist of me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27903</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27903</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the info there.  I still think the law he was punished under is relatively ridiculous, but that certainly changes the narrative a bit doesn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the info there.  I still think the law he was punished under is relatively ridiculous, but that certainly changes the narrative a bit doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew C</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/08/07/driving-extremism/#comment-27900</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4483#comment-27900</guid>
		<description>Sebastian,

I&#039;m reading the &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2007/0responses/2007-1195.resp.pdf&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;appeals court opinion (pdf)&lt;/a&gt;. The relevant section on whether the stream is considered a &quot;waterway&quot; is on pages 2-8.

To roughly summarize, the question is if the waterway is part of the &quot;waters of the United States.&quot; Moses argues that it is not, since &lt;i&gt;Rapanos v United States&lt;/i&gt; states that &quot;waters of the United States&quot; covers “relatively permanent,
standing or continuously flowing bodies of water.&quot; The court disagrees with this interpretation, since the Rapanos case specifically states that it does not exclude &quot;“seasonal rivers, which contain continuous flow during
some months of the year but no flow during dry
months.”

So on that basis, this seasonal river can be included under &quot;waters of the United States&quot;. It contains continuous flow during the spring thaw.

The court did not charge Mr. Moses on any of his actions prior to 2002. Between 2002 and 2005, the court claims he was sent several notices to cease his actions, to which he did not respond.

Bryan Fischer, the author of the article, is part of the &quot;Idaho Values Alliance&quot;. An organization with a name like that sets off the same mental alarms as the phrase &quot;It&#039;s for the children.&quot; Truth and accuracy are irrelevant, if ignoring them helps the agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sebastian,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reading the <a href='http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2007/0responses/2007-1195.resp.pdf' rel="nofollow">appeals court opinion (pdf)</a>. The relevant section on whether the stream is considered a &#8220;waterway&#8221; is on pages 2-8.</p>
<p>To roughly summarize, the question is if the waterway is part of the &#8220;waters of the United States.&#8221; Moses argues that it is not, since <i>Rapanos v United States</i> states that &#8220;waters of the United States&#8221; covers “relatively permanent,<br />
standing or continuously flowing bodies of water.&#8221; The court disagrees with this interpretation, since the Rapanos case specifically states that it does not exclude &#8220;“seasonal rivers, which contain continuous flow during<br />
some months of the year but no flow during dry<br />
months.”</p>
<p>So on that basis, this seasonal river can be included under &#8220;waters of the United States&#8221;. It contains continuous flow during the spring thaw.</p>
<p>The court did not charge Mr. Moses on any of his actions prior to 2002. Between 2002 and 2005, the court claims he was sent several notices to cease his actions, to which he did not respond.</p>
<p>Bryan Fischer, the author of the article, is part of the &#8220;Idaho Values Alliance&#8221;. An organization with a name like that sets off the same mental alarms as the phrase &#8220;It&#8217;s for the children.&#8221; Truth and accuracy are irrelevant, if ignoring them helps the agenda.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

