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	<title>Comments on: There is No Us or Them</title>
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	<description>The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State ...</description>
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		<title>By: waypasthadenough</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27278</link>
		<dc:creator>waypasthadenough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27278</guid>
		<description>Sebastian et al, I can only request that you go read the rest of my columns: 

http://www.willowtown.com/reality/columns.htm

We at war. Wars are fought by ignorant 19 year-olds, lackeys, prostitutes, ignorant idealists and the minority at the top who understand what the real stakes are. It doesn&#039;t matter which one of those pulls the trigger on you. You are just as dead. 

If I had all the answers maybe I&#039;d be leading the group of 3 million or so that should advance on D.C., arrest, try for treason and execute all the members of the socialist caucus, then focus on the numerous Marxist foundations based in Virginia and New York City. Then of course, look at who is really funding them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sebastian et al, I can only request that you go read the rest of my columns: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.willowtown.com/reality/columns.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.willowtown.com/reality/columns.htm</a></p>
<p>We at war. Wars are fought by ignorant 19 year-olds, lackeys, prostitutes, ignorant idealists and the minority at the top who understand what the real stakes are. It doesn&#8217;t matter which one of those pulls the trigger on you. You are just as dead. </p>
<p>If I had all the answers maybe I&#8217;d be leading the group of 3 million or so that should advance on D.C., arrest, try for treason and execute all the members of the socialist caucus, then focus on the numerous Marxist foundations based in Virginia and New York City. Then of course, look at who is really funding them.</p>
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		<title>By: oldblinddog</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27251</link>
		<dc:creator>oldblinddog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27251</guid>
		<description>They don&#039;t have to agree on anything except that the 1st spells everything out and the 2nd gives it teeth. Everything else flows from there....and millions already know and understand these concepts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They don&#8217;t have to agree on anything except that the 1st spells everything out and the 2nd gives it teeth. Everything else flows from there&#8230;.and millions already know and understand these concepts.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27244</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27244</guid>
		<description>Great answer.  I just wish we could get all of them to agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great answer.  I just wish we could get all of them to agree.</p>
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		<title>By: oldblinddog</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27243</link>
		<dc:creator>oldblinddog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27243</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Well, I need a term to describe the gun community, shooting community, second amendment community. What do you call it then?&lt;/i&gt;

Americans</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Well, I need a term to describe the gun community, shooting community, second amendment community. What do you call it then?</i></p>
<p>Americans</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27232</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27232</guid>
		<description>The media aren&#039;t a monolith who are out to destroy gun rights.  Journalist, largely, come from a culture that&#039;s totally ignorant of guns, which combined with the fact that Journalists tend to come from the left, make them biased against guns.  But a bias isn&#039;t a conspiracy.  We can overcome bias.

Part of the reason we haven&#039;t is that the other side knows and plays the media game far better than our side does.  One of my big complaints with NRA is that they don&#039;t really have an overall strategy for media.  ILA has a media group, and general operations has a media group, but I don&#039;t think they have any grand vision for trying to change their relationship, and for getting positive stories out there.  The Bradys are not afraid to put their bullshit in front of ignorant reporters, who will gladly print it, because it confirms their biases.

Still, our media coverage these days is a hell of a lot better than it was in the 90s, and I think that has something to do with our increasing success.  The media is one of those fundamental things that has been killing us.  If we could turn it around, that would be the end of gun control.  Turning it around is tough though.  Michael has done &lt;i&gt;a lot&lt;/i&gt; of work with his show in that regard, which is why I&#039;m surprised he doesn&#039;t see the problem in writing a letter to the editorial board of a newspaper which just basically confirms the biases of the journalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The media aren&#8217;t a monolith who are out to destroy gun rights.  Journalist, largely, come from a culture that&#8217;s totally ignorant of guns, which combined with the fact that Journalists tend to come from the left, make them biased against guns.  But a bias isn&#8217;t a conspiracy.  We can overcome bias.</p>
<p>Part of the reason we haven&#8217;t is that the other side knows and plays the media game far better than our side does.  One of my big complaints with NRA is that they don&#8217;t really have an overall strategy for media.  ILA has a media group, and general operations has a media group, but I don&#8217;t think they have any grand vision for trying to change their relationship, and for getting positive stories out there.  The Bradys are not afraid to put their bullshit in front of ignorant reporters, who will gladly print it, because it confirms their biases.</p>
<p>Still, our media coverage these days is a hell of a lot better than it was in the 90s, and I think that has something to do with our increasing success.  The media is one of those fundamental things that has been killing us.  If we could turn it around, that would be the end of gun control.  Turning it around is tough though.  Michael has done <i>a lot</i> of work with his show in that regard, which is why I&#8217;m surprised he doesn&#8217;t see the problem in writing a letter to the editorial board of a newspaper which just basically confirms the biases of the journalists.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27231</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27231</guid>
		<description>For what it is worth I don&#039;t think anyone intends to hide anything. The crux of the matter is what method would be most effective. Going back to Heston for a moment.The cold dead hands talk coming from him didn&#039;t seem to bother anyone very much except the dedicated anti-gun folks. He was mainstream, charismatic, and an eloquent advocate that I am sure converted a lot of people over to our side. 
  Given the fact that it has been 143 years since the last major conflict, the idea that any kind of resistance or revolutionary activity is even possible is  just outside the thoughts of most people. Saying explicity that in response to X law  I&#039;ll Kill who you send and then I&#039;ll kill you will do what? What is more likely? That they will believe you and refrain from supporting X law, or will they think you are a nut job, a keyboard commando, or something similar, and use you as an example why that law is necessary.
Like I said early on in the original commentary, I don&#039;t have a magic eight ball that gives the magic answer. I think there is a spot in between just sending off your $$ to the gun rights group of your choice, and shouting  I&#039;LL KILL YOU FOR THAT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it is worth I don&#8217;t think anyone intends to hide anything. The crux of the matter is what method would be most effective. Going back to Heston for a moment.The cold dead hands talk coming from him didn&#8217;t seem to bother anyone very much except the dedicated anti-gun folks. He was mainstream, charismatic, and an eloquent advocate that I am sure converted a lot of people over to our side.<br />
  Given the fact that it has been 143 years since the last major conflict, the idea that any kind of resistance or revolutionary activity is even possible is  just outside the thoughts of most people. Saying explicity that in response to X law  I&#8217;ll Kill who you send and then I&#8217;ll kill you will do what? What is more likely? That they will believe you and refrain from supporting X law, or will they think you are a nut job, a keyboard commando, or something similar, and use you as an example why that law is necessary.<br />
Like I said early on in the original commentary, I don&#8217;t have a magic eight ball that gives the magic answer. I think there is a spot in between just sending off your $$ to the gun rights group of your choice, and shouting  I&#8217;LL KILL YOU FOR THAT.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt "45superman" Hofmann</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27228</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt "45superman" Hofmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27228</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn&#039;t you tell the world, EH?&quot; (Kurt, the the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) is your friend :-).&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thank you--although I feel a bit foolish for not having thought of that myself.  Anyway, that is precisely the passage I had in mind.

Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>&#8220;Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn&#8217;t you tell the world, EH?&#8221; (Kurt, the the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) is your friend :-).</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Thank you&#8211;although I feel a bit foolish for not having thought of that myself.  Anyway, that is precisely the passage I had in mind.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27227</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27227</guid>
		<description>Sebastian, while your point about mainstream society&#039;s role in opinion making it well taken, e.g. I read some time ago that NRA members opinions of the organization were more strongly influenced by the MSM than anything else, I think that in general you are mistaken:

A) While there&#039;s long term promise in e.g. &quot;new media&quot; and the Decline and Fall of the MSM, to expect the following will make any difference is fatuous:

&quot;[...] I see no reason for gun owners to provide the media with more tools they can use to create an image of gun owners are being dangerous, and far outside the main stream.  In fact, we need to work very hard to foster the opposite impression in the media.&quot;

It doesn&#039;t matter what we say, the media will with very rare exceptions continue to present their narrative.  They have after all have shown themselves to be quite eager to make up things out of whole cloth, rewrite letters to the editor, etc. etc.  At least Mike&#039;s letter had the advantage of being generally accurate and true, ***as well as morally necessary***, in terms of telling our enemies the consequences of their actions and giving them fair warning.

&quot;Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn&#039;t you tell the world, EH?&quot; (Kurt, the the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) is your friend :-).

B) &quot;Bob&quot; is in general not going to speak up for all the reasons outlined above, often for no other reason than that he wants to preserve his job and career.  We *might* get his &quot;active support&quot; (say in terms of voting---there are downsides to requiring the publishing of campaign donors names...), but it will be silent except to a trusted few until &quot;it&#039;s clearly safe and at least somewhat popular to do so&quot;.

Peter put it best: &quot;[...] if the gun culture gets shut down before Bob can work up his gumption, just what have we accomplished?&quot;

The thing that most concerns me here is that while our enemies are on the run in the larger scheme of things, they are still focusing on the long term where they can win by aborting the next generations of gun owners.

And a final point about deterrence, one I haven&#039;t figured out how to present in anything less than very ugly ways, which is probably inherent:

Dave: &quot;[A radical letter] could have a solid chance of convincing gun control oriented folks that X law is absolutely necessary as it does stopping them from considering it.  Remember they know they aren&#039;t going to be the ones that have to enforce the law in question, so the chances of them being afraid of any trouble resulting from it seems slim to me.&quot;

For that reason, you have to make it absolutely clear they are in this game as well.  That such a &quot;revolution&quot; will in truth be that, as ugly as any modern  one, let alone our American &quot;Rebellion&quot; (for the French shortly afterwards redefined the term).

I most certainly don&#039;t want the country to get to a point where a slogan like &quot;Have you killed a liberal today?&quot; is popular, but I&#039;d be a fool to entirely discount it.

How we present this ugly &quot;Doomsday Weapon&quot; truth is very open to debate (especially the thresholds, although ambiguity there can be useful), but trying to hide it is unwise and certainly immoral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sebastian, while your point about mainstream society&#8217;s role in opinion making it well taken, e.g. I read some time ago that NRA members opinions of the organization were more strongly influenced by the MSM than anything else, I think that in general you are mistaken:</p>
<p>A) While there&#8217;s long term promise in e.g. &#8220;new media&#8221; and the Decline and Fall of the MSM, to expect the following will make any difference is fatuous:</p>
<p>&#8220;[...] I see no reason for gun owners to provide the media with more tools they can use to create an image of gun owners are being dangerous, and far outside the main stream.  In fact, we need to work very hard to foster the opposite impression in the media.&#8221;</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter what we say, the media will with very rare exceptions continue to present their narrative.  They have after all have shown themselves to be quite eager to make up things out of whole cloth, rewrite letters to the editor, etc. etc.  At least Mike&#8217;s letter had the advantage of being generally accurate and true, ***as well as morally necessary***, in terms of telling our enemies the consequences of their actions and giving them fair warning.</p>
<p>&#8220;Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn&#8217;t you tell the world, EH?&#8221; (Kurt, the the Internet Movie Database (www.imdb.com) is your friend :-).</p>
<p>B) &#8220;Bob&#8221; is in general not going to speak up for all the reasons outlined above, often for no other reason than that he wants to preserve his job and career.  We *might* get his &#8220;active support&#8221; (say in terms of voting&#8212;there are downsides to requiring the publishing of campaign donors names&#8230;), but it will be silent except to a trusted few until &#8220;it&#8217;s clearly safe and at least somewhat popular to do so&#8221;.</p>
<p>Peter put it best: &#8220;[...] if the gun culture gets shut down before Bob can work up his gumption, just what have we accomplished?&#8221;</p>
<p>The thing that most concerns me here is that while our enemies are on the run in the larger scheme of things, they are still focusing on the long term where they can win by aborting the next generations of gun owners.</p>
<p>And a final point about deterrence, one I haven&#8217;t figured out how to present in anything less than very ugly ways, which is probably inherent:</p>
<p>Dave: &#8220;[A radical letter] could have a solid chance of convincing gun control oriented folks that X law is absolutely necessary as it does stopping them from considering it.  Remember they know they aren&#8217;t going to be the ones that have to enforce the law in question, so the chances of them being afraid of any trouble resulting from it seems slim to me.&#8221;</p>
<p>For that reason, you have to make it absolutely clear they are in this game as well.  That such a &#8220;revolution&#8221; will in truth be that, as ugly as any modern  one, let alone our American &#8220;Rebellion&#8221; (for the French shortly afterwards redefined the term).</p>
<p>I most certainly don&#8217;t want the country to get to a point where a slogan like &#8220;Have you killed a liberal today?&#8221; is popular, but I&#8217;d be a fool to entirely discount it.</p>
<p>How we present this ugly &#8220;Doomsday Weapon&#8221; truth is very open to debate (especially the thresholds, although ambiguity there can be useful), but trying to hide it is unwise and certainly immoral.</p>
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		<title>By: Roberta X</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27218</link>
		<dc:creator>Roberta X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27218</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#039;m good enough, I&#039;m smart enough and, gosh-darn it, people &lt;i&gt;like&lt;/i&gt; me.&quot;

     Not sure which gets up my nose most, the louder line-in-the-sand types or the &quot;If we&#039;re &lt;i&gt;nice&lt;/i&gt;, people wil come to love us,&quot; folks.  I suspect both approaches may have a flaw or two.

     Tell ya this for true: when we spat, Sarah Brady smiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m good enough, I&#8217;m smart enough and, gosh-darn it, people <i>like</i> me.&#8221;</p>
<p>     Not sure which gets up my nose most, the louder line-in-the-sand types or the &#8220;If we&#8217;re <i>nice</i>, people wil come to love us,&#8221; folks.  I suspect both approaches may have a flaw or two.</p>
<p>     Tell ya this for true: when we spat, Sarah Brady smiles.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.pagunblog.com/2008/07/26/there-is-no-us-or-them/#comment-27213</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 04:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?p=4251#comment-27213</guid>
		<description>Great post.  It really highlights the divisive nature that is common to most people.  We must overcome this and band together if we are to win the battles that lie ahead.  Educate fence sitters, train new shooters, one at a time, all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  It really highlights the divisive nature that is common to most people.  We must overcome this and band together if we are to win the battles that lie ahead.  Educate fence sitters, train new shooters, one at a time, all the time.</p>
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