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Target: C&R FFLs

Ryan thinks ATF could target C&R FFLs once they drive the number of type 01 and type 02 FFLs down to low enough levels. This is not out of the realm of possibility. If there’s one thing a government bureaucracy hates, it’s losing power, funding, and people. If it’s current mission can’t justify an agency that large, they will find new areas to focus on that’s within the scope of their powers.

The whole Curio and Relics licensing system has flown under the radar so far, but there is a very serious risk that could change.

UPDATE: Uncle thinks they will go after home builders first.  I don’t disagree with this, but that doesn’t mean C&R FFL holders won’t get some attention too.   There are a lot of C&R FFL holders though, so to some degree we have the sea turtle defense.  It’s worth noting that ATF didn’t harass “kitchen table” dealers out of business, they started requiring that the licensed premises be zoned properly for the operation of that type of business, which is a standard that most hobby dealers couldn’t meet.  If you weren’t zoned, you weren’t getting your license renewed.  Home builders can be gone after easily because they operate in a tricky legal area that prohibits “manufacture for sale”  So if my buddy buys an 80% lower and asks me to drill a few holes using my jig and equipment, am I in the business of manufacturing and require a type 07 FFL?  The C&R stuff is a lot more straight forward, but ATF can definitely make C&R not worth the hassle.  C&R holders, what are the various ways you think ATF could make our lives miserable?  It’s a good exercise.  Leave your thoughts in the comments.

28 Responses to “Target: C&R FFLs”

  1. SayUncle says:

    I think the next target is home-builders. There have already been a few shots fired across that bow.

  2. SayUncle says:

    RE: homebuilders. search my site for kt ordnance. the case law is in motion.

  3. Ahab says:

    The easiest to harass us as a group would be to narrowly define what constitutes a C&R gun. Right now, the “50 years old” clause allows a lot of guns to legally be considered C&R. If they went and narrowed that definition to “guns specifically mentioned on the list and nothing more” it would begin to cause problems.

  4. Tom says:

    SAYUNCLE — Can you be more specific? What’s kt ordnance?

  5. Sebastian says:

    That’s a good one Ahab. Title 18, Chapter 44 doesn’t actually define what a C&R firearm is. That power is left to the Attorney General. It requires a change to the code of federal regulations, which there is a process for, but it can be done without an Act of Congress.

  6. Sebastian says:

    More specific how? Search his site for “kt ordnance” for details :)

  7. nathan says:

    They already make my life miserable. I got my C&R right before I left college, but never bought anything because lets face it I was a broke college student. I graduated and moved, thinking to myself, I’ve got a good job, time for some C&R goodness, all I’ve got to do is change my address, easy enough right? Wrong. I’ve tried a half dozen times in the last year and it keeps getting kicked back, time after time after time. This last time it was because I didn’t have a field clearly labeled “Business Use Only” filled out. It took a little over a month to get the license and now I’m going on a year without being able to change my address.

  8. Sebastian says:

    Is this 5300.38? The form to amend an FFL? I would call the ATF and ask them for some guidance. There might be some confusion over what type of FFL you are, though they should be able to tell that from the number. That form is more tailored to other types of FFLs, so it’s probably wise to call ATF and see exactly what they are expecting.

  9. anon says:

    “So if my buddy buys an 80% lower and asks me to drill a few holes using my jig and equipment, am I in the business of manufacturing and require a type 07 FFL?”

    Presumably, yes you are. Best to stop/decline lest the waffen ATF shows up at your door. On the other hand, if you lend him a jig and let him use your mill&drill equipment, you’re OK. A home builder needs to do everything himself, even (again presumably) any initial heat treating and anodizing/coating/bluing.

  10. nathan says:

    It is the 5300.38 and I have called unfortunately. Since its easier to get a license than change the address, I’m almost to the point of letting it expire and then re-applying.

  11. Sebastian says:

    What did they say?

  12. gattsuru says:

    While changing the definition of C&R stuff could make things unpleasant, I don’t see it being the first shot off the bow against C&R licenses.

    Expect the amount of paperwork and licensing costs to skyrocket, first. If that isn’t enough, they’ll cut down the definition of acceptable premises. After that, they’ll warm up the probulator and start annual checks to make sure every C&R collector isn’t “engaged in the business” and has adequate locking mechanisms and safes. Unlocked C&R guns will be considered to be a violation of the C&R license and thus the GCA, making things much more difficult for C&R licensees, destroying fourth amendment protections, and providing great “violations” numbers for the ATF.

  13. nathan says:

    Not a whole lot. It amounted to “fill out the form correctly and we’ll change your address.” Their idea of “civil service” is terribly short on the service part. I got some woman that was so short with me that it bordered on rudeness and really didn’t tell me a whole lot. I’m moving again at the end of the month so I’ll resume trying then. Maybe 7th time is the charm…

  14. Sebastian says:

    I love that. The form is completely nonsensical for type 03s, it contains little instruction, but it’s you’re fault! I love our government, let me tell you.

  15. Ian Argent says:

    Important safety tip – buy a home before cruffling. I’ll bear that in mind, then.

    (Not that I was planning on getting a C&R anytime soon, mind)

  16. Joe Carpenter says:

    Since 03 might be more akin to “01 kitchen table dealers” rather than your Red’s Trading Posts, anything harkened our way will probably be basic hassles that just make us lose interest in C&R.
    I can see any of these happening:

    1) Abolishment of the 03 C&R License.

    2) Increase in license fee and license frequency. Say, something like $200 per year, not $30 for 3 years. If this was the case from the outset I wouldn’t have bothered. I barely justified the $30. If it goes to $50, I may just not renew.

    3) Decrease in what is termed C&R.

    4) More stringent / obscure recordkeeping regulations with inspections to ensure your records are within code.

    5) Illegal to sell C&R firearms except to other C&R license holders.

    6) Stringent requirements for storage of C&R firearms. For example, trigger locks, or stored in dismantled state.

  17. Sebastian says:

    Abolishment of the 03 C&R License.

    It would take an Act of Congress to do this. ATF couldn’t unilaterally do it. They could, however, make the license pretty much useless by changing the definition to be essentially meaningless.

    Increase in license fee and license frequency. Say, something like $200 per year, not $30 for 3 years. If this was the case from the outset I wouldn’t have bothered. I barely justified the $30. If it goes to $50, I may just not renew.

    They could increase frequency but not fee. It would take an Act of Congress to alter the fee.

    Decrease in what is termed C&R.

    They could do this, but it would require a change in the code of federal regulation and be subject to the rulemaking process. It doesn’t, however take any action from Congress.

    Illegal to sell C&R firearms except to other C&R license holders.

    This one would take an Act of Congress

    Stringent requirements for storage of C&R firearms. For example, trigger locks, or stored in dismantled state.

    Also would take an Act of Congress

  18. straightarrow says:

    You might want to read the part where agency regulations carry the force of law. Even though the law may not address or be in actual disagreement.

    Even winning these battles is losing.

    You cannot move your C&R collection that was purchased via your license and entered in your bound book without ATF permission.

    Yeah, I know you more sophisticated people are going to point out that the purpose of this regulation is so ATF can assure itself that you will be in compliance with all laws and regulations of your new residence. Now go back to the top and read about Nathan’s address change. Then quit smirking at us rubes who have refused to board that leaky boat.

    I have the weapons I wanted, historical and otherwise, without being able to take advantage of the C&R specials and twofer and fourfer deals, but I considered the extra price a small price to maintain my independence. The agency cannot tell me whether or not I can take mine with me. That alone is reason enough not to sign your autonomy away over your own property.

    But sophisticated people don’t know that. That’s a rube secret.

  19. Sebastian says:

    You can move without ATF permission. If you want to continue to use your C&R license, you have to amend your FFL with your new address. FFLs can only send firearms to the licenses premises.

  20. Ian Argent says:

    If you give up your C&R license, how hard is it to self-transfer?

  21. straightarrow says:

    Yes Sebastian, you can move without ATF permission, but you cannot move your collection without their permission. You better read the regs more closely. They specifically state you cannot move the collection to a permanent location not listed on your C&R license, without their permission. They also can pull an inspection at their convenience, though they are required to notify you in advance before showing up at your home.

    So if you buy a new or different home and you have firearms purchased via your C&R license you have two problems. First you have Nathan’s problem, you get an address change on your license. Which we see from Nathan’s experience is something they are not eager to help you accomplish. Second, even if you do get the address changed license, you still must have the agency’s permission to move those firearms to the new location.

    If you are thinking of getting your C&R license, you can find the regs on the net. I urge you to do so and read them. You will see what I have said is true.

  22. Sebastian says:

    A lot of people think that’s true, but it’s not. Where’s the ATF form seeking such permission? You won’t find it, because it’s not required. You do need to file a form for moving NFA firearms across state lines, but crufflers can move their collection. You just have to amend your FFL if you want to use it again.

  23. Turk Turon says:

    Quote: “… even if you do get the address changed license, you still must have the agency’s permission to move those firearms to the new location.”

    I don’t get that; it seems to me that if they issue a revised license with the new address, that is, de facto, permission to move the C&R collection to the new address. It seems to me that leaving the C&R collection at the old location, after the revised license has been issued, would be a violation. That is, if there is any violation.

    And are you sure that the C&R arms can’t be moved from the address, at all? You can’t go hunting with any of your C&R arms?

    I’ve gotta go home and start plowing through that 4-inch thick stack of regulations they sent me.

  24. Sebastian says:

    I’ve gotta go home and start plowing through that 4-inch thick stack of regulations they sent me.

    Gotta love it.

  25. T says:

    Every so often I contemplate a C&R or an actual 01 FFL. Then I think about dealing with the ATFE and the thought quickly passes.

  26. straightarrow says:

    No, Turk, there is no restriction on hunting with them, except maybe state or local, usually restricting magazine capacity or caliber, etc.

    I can’t tell you exactly where in the regs I read it, but it is there that you cannot domicile your collection in a new address until the ATF gives you permission. The stated rationale for that is to ensure that you will not be violating any laws or regs applicable to your new residence. I have no reason to believe this was intended to be a de facto denial of rights, but the potential is there for it to be such.

    In light of the current practices and bent of the ATF it seems likely to become just another of the weapons used to deny your rights.

    If I feel like it, I will try to find where I read it before, but I have had this discussion before and am tired of always having to reinvent the goddamned wheel. I definitely remembeer it because it was the most influential reason I decided to not to get my contemplated C&R.

    Someone above mentioned there is no form to make application to move your collection, and I suspect he is correct, because I have no recollection at all of any mention of a form for such purpose.

    It has been quite a few years ago, so while I won’t swear to this on my honor, I do seem to recall some wording about it being the holder’s responsibility to notify the ATF of his intention to move his collection allowing them time to ensure that doing so would not violate any laws or regs of the new venue.

    If that has been changed, dropped or deleted Iam not aware of it. But then, that wouldn’t be the final word because at the point I decided to forego myC&R license, I had determined the rules to be too fluid and open ended in favor of the ATF despite whether or not one had conformed to all regs in force at the time of licensing.

    I am not telling anyone not to do it. It just wasn’t for me. I don’t ever agree to surrender my autonomy as a free man. Nor do I care who approves it or not.

  27. GunnerOZ says:

    Straight Arrow I know this comes more than 7 mos later but that is utter BS. The C&R only deals with obtaining them not posessing them( unless you alter them which is a whole nother can of worms). In fact its only real use is for interstate commerce. What happens then if I don’t renew my 03FFL? Am I supposed to sell my entire collection? Too who? The second you bought a gun and were subjected to the NICS check you were listed. Don’t think for a second you were’nt. I only have to keep my bound book for eternity so I can provide a record of the disposition of said firearms if I am ever asked. When I filled out the C&R app I subjected myself to the Instant Check without a purchase and it came back clean. The 03FFL is the “Stamp on the wrist” that I’m OK with the ATF to receive that weapon. The sending FFL does’nt need to check cuz the GOV says I’m OK. That’s what it facilitates. If it mattered where I moved the collection then I would have to permission everytime I sold one to a non FFL as that is in essence “moving” the weapon. All I need to do is get documentation and I am free and clear. It in the regs. I think some of the 01FFL regs are causing the confusion here.

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