The seizure warrant above basically describes a lot of usual and customary goings ons of a business that sells silver, gold and platinum medallions (as Liberty Dollar web site always refers to them), some books and rectangular warehouse receipts.

It further asserts that Bernard von NotHaus drives all of a 1999 silver colored Cadillac sedan and that Kevin Innes drives a 1992 white Volvo sedan (jet setting bankers they are not). I should hope that once this current campaign of harassment is neutralized that increased awareness of
http://www.LiberyDollar.org/ will enable Mr. von NotHaus and Mr. Innes to trade in their cars for newer models.

I have been a satisfied customer of Liberty Dollar for several years and many hundreds of dollars of purchases. I have been happy that there is a business out there that prints up educational books about the Federal Reserve and the nature of money that those pitiful excuses for currency my bank requires (Federal Reserve Notes). I hope there will continue to be a business that prints up books, sells round silver, gold and platinum discs and makes a legitimate profit at it because Citibank, Chase Bank and Bank of America certainly don’t.

Now I must log off so I can sell my $20 Ron Paul silver dollar on eBay for $100/200/300+ as I have a feeling that they won’t be scarce for long.
http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C5&guest=1&saaff=afdefault&sacur=0&fcl=3&frpp=50&from=R10&saslop=1&fss=0&_trksid=m37&satitle=ron+paul+silver+dollar&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=85281&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&fis=2&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D2&fgtp=

Who is this Ron Paul?

That’s not to say that the feds have a case against NORFED in particular, but the coins do have similar features to US currency. Whether or not it’s similar enough to warrant an indictment under the statute that criminalizes utterance of coins will be a matter for the Grand Jury.

Also, I thought that counterfeiting pertain only to making imitations of the official currency. For example the latest Clinton note isn’t counterfeit, is it?

I have only a passing knowledge of early (i.e. pre- Federal Reserve) banking practices, but I do know that many banks issued their own notes. Also, in the early days of the Republic, what coinage do you suppose was in circulation? Certainly, at the moment of final adoption of the Consititution, it didn’t become instantly illegal to use the various crowns, sovreigns, pence, dubloons, or what have you in circulation at the time, did it?

I’ll also note that NORFED was issuing, in addition to coinage, printed silver notes, advertised as being fully backed by reserves. Since it’s a redundancy to issue silver coinage “backed by silver reserves”, the fraud charges are more likely to do with the amount of silver held by NORFED in relation to notes issued.

Of course, fractional reserve banking is common — even the norm. However, if NORFED was failing to fullfil their marketing promise of full backing, then shame on them. (Yes, I know NORFED is not a bank, in the modern sense of the term.)

Also, I have a vague recollection of a somewhat recent story of some municipality using “community dollars” as a way of encouraging local enterprise — something of an anti-Wal-Mart sentiment going on there. Wish I could remember more about it. It reminded me of LETS — Locate Exchange Transaction System. Interesting concept.

Any prosecutor in the country can get a grand jury to return a true bill against a ham sandwich for armed robbery.

It’ll be up to a grand jury at this point. They’ll be the ones to determine whether the FBI and US Attorney are full of crap.

Trading something of value for something else of value is barter, which is not counterfeiting. If you and I trade each other a pickup truck for a fishing boat, we have used alternate currency, but we certainly would not be counterfeiters.

If these medallions are actually precious metals of the percentage claimed the fraud charge is out the window. And as Liberty Dollar claims their value would be commensurate with value of that metal on the market, again, no fraud. They claim that the Libery Dollars is worth more than the government minted and printed money due to rapid fall of the U.S. dollar’s value in the currency markets, if that is one of the planks upon which rests the governments reasoning that fraud or counterfeiting has occurred, why have they not charged every investment firm in the nation dealing in precious metals investment with the same crimes, they all make the same claim. Further, the claims are true.

I have many times in my life transferred money from one account to another of my accounts, all open and above board. Still do it, today, in order to make internet payments on some bills without risking all to some id thief or hacker. I don’t know why the money laundering charges were brought, but so far the accusation seems to accuse them of no more than allocating monies to their own various accounts. i see don’t see at this point, with what has been presented, how their actions constitute money laundering since there apparently is no attempt to actually hide the cash nor to hide its origin.

I also find it interesting that Silver Dollar has sued the government and the AG and others a little over a year ago and a judge’s decision that was expected to be issued in September on whether to allow the suit to proceed has not yet been issued. I find this timing a little suspicious, or at best, damned convenient for the feds. A little too convenient, but I am, by training, cynical of government motive.(they are the ones that trained me to cynicism, I used to be very supportive, regardless) Could it be that the election tampering and improper influencing of the court as regards their case might have more to do with the raid and leveling of charges than any real belief that a crime has been committed?

I think it could be. I would need many more details about the case to be certain either way, but in reading the affidavit and other governmental claims I was struck by the vagueness of their reasons for the warrant. Vagueness in governmental reasoning almost always is a warning that state chicanery is afoot.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but somehow I doubt any of us will ever be given enough information to form a reasonable opinion. That always makes me suspicious. Time will tell.

I think there’s a chance they’ll beat the counterfeiting charges, but the fraud charges might be a bit tougher. Nonetheless, I don’t think the feds are acting unreasonable in this case. The elements are all there to constitute enough probable cause for the warrant. As the affidavit indicates, this investigation has been ongoing for several years. It involves a multi-level marketing scheme operated across several states and utilizing mechanisms of interstate commerce, so I do think the feds have an appropriate power here in the interstate commerce clause. Minting of coin is definitely something reserved to the federal government under the constitution, so counterfeiting is an appropriate federal crime. NORFED claims their currency is constitutional, but the copy of the constitution I have says Congress has the power “To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures”

They may not be guilty of what they were charged with, but the probable cause is there, and the rest will be up to a federal grand jury as to whether an indictment in this case is warranted.

I don’t suppose you would take my word for it that at this point there is more reason to question the motives of the government than to accept their accusations at face value?

I’m so pissed at the moment that I couldn’t begin to rebuild it. I hate goddamned machines. I think I am a luddite.